Jump to content



Photo

Mass Combat, and using the Wisdom of "The Other Game" (Warhammer Fantasy)


  • Please log in to reply
32 replies to this topic

#21 Sturn

Sturn

    Member

  • Members
  • 892 posts

Posted 22 February 2014 - 07:08 AM

 

A company, typically 12 squads of 10-15 men, can be readily represented by 12 minion groups - essentially, "12 figures" in wargame speak.

 

 

 

Well, kinda in the rules as written. You aren't going to get any bonus for "attacks" in a 15 minion group vs. only a 6 minion group. The only advantage to a minion group with such numbers would be damage soak. Your 15 Stormtrooper group is equal to your 6 Stormtrooper group when rolling the attack dice. The game mechanics don't strictly support minion groups that large (no dice left to flip yellow), but I suppose you could do it.



#22 Chortles

Chortles

    Member

  • Members
  • 748 posts

Posted 22 February 2014 - 12:03 PM

What Sturn said -- the only upside in RAW for more than six Minions to a group is being able to take more damage/lose more Minions without the group's skill rank(s) going down.


 

Well, according to George Lucas, the Empire is intended to be bad guys and the Sith to be objectively evil.

Fans proceeded to immediately disregard his bull and have fun with the Empire and make believable characters left and right, and come up with sensible rationalizations east, west, north and south.

 


#23 Doc, the Weasel

Doc, the Weasel

    Pretending to be many, many things.

  • Members
  • 1,396 posts

Posted 22 February 2014 - 01:21 PM

 

 

A company, typically 12 squads of 10-15 men, can be readily represented by 12 minion groups - essentially, "12 figures" in wargame speak.

 

 

 

Well, kinda in the rules as written. You aren't going to get any bonus for "attacks" in a 15 minion group vs. only a 6 minion group. The only advantage to a minion group with such numbers would be damage soak. Your 15 Stormtrooper group is equal to your 6 Stormtrooper group when rolling the attack dice. The game mechanics don't strictly support minion groups that large (no dice left to flip yellow), but I suppose you could do it.

 

 

I'm not following you here as far as upgrading dice. If you run out of dice to flip when you upgrade, you add a die.

 

I'm not aware of any RAW hard cap on dice use.


Listen to my actual play podcasts at BeggingForXP.com.

 

Take a look at my Talent Trees (updated to include Dangerous Covenants), as well as my other handouts.


#24 aramis

aramis

    Member

  • Members
  • 958 posts

Posted 22 February 2014 - 03:58 PM

 

 

 

A company, typically 12 squads of 10-15 men, can be readily represented by 12 minion groups - essentially, "12 figures" in wargame speak.

 

 

 

Well, kinda in the rules as written. You aren't going to get any bonus for "attacks" in a 15 minion group vs. only a 6 minion group. The only advantage to a minion group with such numbers would be damage soak. Your 15 Stormtrooper group is equal to your 6 Stormtrooper group when rolling the attack dice. The game mechanics don't strictly support minion groups that large (no dice left to flip yellow), but I suppose you could do it.

 

 

I'm not following you here as far as upgrading dice. If you run out of dice to flip when you upgrade, you add a die.

 

I'm not aware of any RAW hard cap on dice use.

 

Skills cap at 5. The wording is inexact, as I'm not looking at the book at the moment, but the skill level of a minion group is 1 less than the number of members, and skills don't actually upgrade attributes - you start with the lower of att or skill in yellow, make the difference up with greens.

 

If you ignore the skill cap, 15 minions would be 3Y+11G. Cumbersome (And 4 sets of dice)


  • Sturn and Doc, the Weasel like this

#25 HappyDaze

HappyDaze

    Member

  • Members
  • 4,824 posts

Posted 23 February 2014 - 05:03 AM

Using Stim Application on a large group of minions can be pretty effective. They all benefit as a single entity, and a squad of eight stormtroopers with Agility 4, Ranged (Heavy) 5 and blaster rifles can be rather nasty even after taking 4 damage from the drugs.


Ignore, Ignore, you must learn Ignore!

 

Now Ignoring: Nobody!


#26 Sturn

Sturn

    Member

  • Members
  • 892 posts

Posted 23 February 2014 - 07:37 AM

 

I'm not following you here as far as upgrading dice. If you run out of dice to flip when you upgrade, you add a die.

 

I'm not aware of any RAW hard cap on dice use.

 

 

See pages 102 and 390.

 

Page 102 describes skill ranks up to 5. It describes ranks 1 and 2 as skilled, but a beginner. Ranks 3 and 4 are "professionals". Then, rank 5 is described as rarely obtained and such skilled people being known far and wide for such. It doesn't describe a skill rank 6 or beyond.

 

Page 390 describes Minions as having one skill rank below the current number in its group. So, a group of 6 provides the maximum group skill potential.

 

Thus, very large Minion groups (beyond 6) aren't going to benefit from offensive ability, but will still greatly benefit from defensive ability - more Soak and will not suffer offensive ability until there total number drops below 6.

 

Like I said, you could easily have Minion groups numbering 60 and not violate any rules. But, be aware that their offensive ability will not increase above that of a like group of 6, which could cause some realism issues. Ten groups of 6 Stormtroopers each are going to be much, much, much more powerful (10 attacks) then one group of 60 (1 attack of the same power as the smaller groups), even though they both represent 60 Stormtroopers.



#27 Doc, the Weasel

Doc, the Weasel

    Pretending to be many, many things.

  • Members
  • 1,396 posts

Posted 23 February 2014 - 11:59 AM

 

 

I'm not following you here as far as upgrading dice. If you run out of dice to flip when you upgrade, you add a die.

 

I'm not aware of any RAW hard cap on dice use.

 

 

See pages 102 and 390.

 

Page 102 describes skill ranks up to 5. It describes ranks 1 and 2 as skilled, but a beginner. Ranks 3 and 4 are "professionals". Then, rank 5 is described as rarely obtained and such skilled people being known far and wide for such. It doesn't describe a skill rank 6 or beyond.

 

Page 390 describes Minions as having one skill rank below the current number in its group. So, a group of 6 provides the maximum group skill potential.

 

Thus, very large Minion groups (beyond 6) aren't going to benefit from offensive ability, but will still greatly benefit from defensive ability - more Soak and will not suffer offensive ability until there total number drops below 6.

 

Like I said, you could easily have Minion groups numbering 60 and not violate any rules. But, be aware that their offensive ability will not increase above that of a like group of 6, which could cause some realism issues. Ten groups of 6 Stormtroopers each are going to be much, much, much more powerful (10 attacks) then one group of 60 (1 attack of the same power as the smaller groups), even though they both represent 60 Stormtroopers.

 

 

It's not quite explicit either way as to how it should work and whether minion groups adhere to the limit individuals have. You have to connect two things that aren't clearly connected. One could easily assume it goes either way.

 

That said, you shouldn't be running minion groups that large anyway. WFRP capped groups at the number of players. I'm surprised they didn't have a cap in this game.


Listen to my actual play podcasts at BeggingForXP.com.

 

Take a look at my Talent Trees (updated to include Dangerous Covenants), as well as my other handouts.


#28 aramis

aramis

    Member

  • Members
  • 958 posts

Posted 24 February 2014 - 02:28 PM

It's not quite explicit either way as to how it should work and whether minion groups adhere to the limit individuals have. You have to connect two things that aren't clearly connected. One could easily assume it goes either way.
 
That said, you shouldn't be running minion groups that large anyway. WFRP capped groups at the number of players. I'm surprised they didn't have a cap in this game.

I'm not surprised by the lack of cap - for two reasons. (1) It allows more flexibility in threat assessment - a pair of skill 5 Ag 4 PC's can easily handle a pair of groups of 6 minions (Skill 5 att 3). (2) it would be ignored by many anyway.

 

One thing I've considered doing (as a house rule) for large minion groups is giving "linked" in place of additional dice for groups larger than 6 NPC's. Say, 7-9 is skill 5 linked 1, 10-12 is skill 6 linked 2, 13-15 is skill 7 linked 3... just to give more teeth to large minion groups.


Edited by aramis, 24 February 2014 - 02:28 PM.


#29 HappyDaze

HappyDaze

    Member

  • Members
  • 4,824 posts

Posted 24 February 2014 - 04:47 PM



One thing I've considered doing (as a house rule) for large minion groups is giving "linked" in place of additional dice for groups larger than 6 NPC's. Say, 7-9 is skill 5 linked 1, 10-12 is skill 6 linked 2, 13-15 is skill 7 linked 3... just to give more teeth to large minion groups.

 

There's a published adventure where you fight two 5-man minion groups on speeder bikes. They use light repeating blasters mounted on the bikes. YYYG with Auto-Fire is pretty deadly.


Ignore, Ignore, you must learn Ignore!

 

Now Ignoring: Nobody!


#30 aramis

aramis

    Member

  • Members
  • 958 posts

Posted 24 February 2014 - 05:31 PM

 



One thing I've considered doing (as a house rule) for large minion groups is giving "linked" in place of additional dice for groups larger than 6 NPC's. Say, 7-9 is skill 5 linked 1, 10-12 is skill 6 linked 2, 13-15 is skill 7 linked 3... just to give more teeth to large minion groups.

 

There's a published adventure where you fight two 5-man minion groups on speeder bikes. They use light repeating blasters mounted on the bikes. YYYG with Auto-Fire is pretty deadly.

 

Why do you think I chose linked, instead? AF can hit as many times as half your advantage. Linked is limited.

Allowing 7-9 a second hit seems pretty reasonable - since as two groups, it would nominally be 2 separate YYY, while my house rule would put it YYYGGG Linked 1 - cutting the odds of crits and lowering the overall number of hits while increasing the average damage slightly.  Perhaps it should be 7-10, 11-14, 15-18...

 

Still, it's a way to make it more reasonable to have large groups of minions.



#31 Oku

Oku

    Member

  • Members
  • 3 posts

Posted 28 February 2014 - 02:04 AM

My LGS has this on it's website. Estimated release date is in May. I wonder if those expanded rules will help running mass combats...

 

Star Wars: Age of Rebellion Game Master’s Kit

 

Blast deeper into the action of your Star Wars roleplaying campaign with the Star Wars: Age of Rebellion Game Master’s Kit.

The GM’s Kit includes a GM screen which provides a handy reference for a host of vital Game Master information. You’ll also find expanded rules for running military squads and squadrons, plus a complete adventure titled Dead in the Water, which challenges players to stand strong against the Empire, even after they’ve finished the adventure featured in the Core Rulebook.

• A helpful GM screen provides reference to a host of vital information 
• Includes expanded rules for running military squads and squadrons 
• Includes a complete Age of Rebellion adventure, Dead in the Water



#32 That Blasted Samophlange

That Blasted Samophlange

    Member

  • Members
  • 802 posts

Posted 28 February 2014 - 04:59 AM

Someone posted that the Edge of the Empire hured gun book, dangerous covenants, has som mass combat rules on page 81 - so I bet they will be the same as in the gms guide.
You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point if EU.

#33 KRKappel

KRKappel

    Member

  • Members
  • 117 posts

Posted 05 March 2014 - 02:00 AM

Someone posted that the Edge of the Empire hured gun book, dangerous covenants, has som mass combat rules on page 81 - so I bet they will be the same as in the gms guide.

 

I can tell you that I did not have access to a copy of Dangerous Covenants while writing the GM Kit. Also, mass combat rules and squad and squadron rules are not phrases I would consider wholly interchangeable.

Think of the minion rules, the Covenants rules, the GM Kit rules, and any potential future rules governing this sort of thing all as options for dealing with a large number of opponents, a large number of allies, or crowded battlefields in general. I think in most cases, any one set of the rules can get the job done, but if you have access to and learn all the different ones, you'll have the option of picking whatever you like best, or fits your group play style best, or whatever best suits that particular scenario.


  • Doc, the Weasel, kaosoe and GMmL like this

Official Contributor: Edge of the Empire: Suns of Fortune, Age of Rebellion: GM Kit, StarWars.com Blog Centerpoint Station

Follow me @KRKappel, facebook.com/keith.kappel, and KRKappel.com, Co-founder of fandomcomics.com

 





© 2013 Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc. Fantasy Flight Games and the FFG logo are ® of Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc.  All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact | User Support | Rules Questions | Help | RSS