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Can you commit more than one Force die to the same effect?


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#1 yeti1069

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 07:17 PM

For example, could you commit two Force dice to Enhance your Brawn by 2 (1/die)?

 

Could you commit two Force dice to the first Control upgrade on the left side of the Sense power, essentially spending an extra die in place of the upgrade (upgrade difficulty of attack targeting you; use once per die committed)?

 

Is there any text that supports of forbids this interpretation?

 

It came up in the game I'm in, where I fell on the side of No, and my friend on the other.



#2 Grimmshade

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 07:36 PM

I would say no. It doesn't say commit a number of force dice, and for each one committed do this. IT just says commit one and do this.


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#3 yeti1069

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 08:10 PM

I would say no. It doesn't say commit a number of force dice, and for each one committed do this. IT just says commit one and do this.

That was my stance--that the book calls out specifically the instances where powers and their upgrades can be triggered multiple times, whereas these effects have no such language.



#4 Crimson Death

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 08:16 PM

Imagine committing 3 force die to the sense power to upgrade attacks against you 6 times or upgrade your attack 6 times.



#5 yeti1069

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 05:10 AM

Yeah, I think it's ludicrous, but that's not going to work as an argument.



#6 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 05:23 AM

Per a conversation I had with Jay Little at last year's GenCon (the guy is seriously cool to hang out with), he cited that EotE and its sibling games all have a strong element of "resource management", be that resource in the form of Strain, Destiny Points, spending Advantage/Threat, or Force dice.

 

As each Ongoing Effect is a separate Control Upgrade, and none of those Upgrades say "can activate multiple times" the way that many other Upgrades (particularly Range Upgrades) have, and when combined with the above design intent, I'd call that pretty strong evidence that you can only activate an Ongoing Effect once, even if you have multiple Force dice available.

 

Trying to activate Sense's defensive Control Upgrade twice with Force Rating 2 would be akin to trying to justify spending two Strain to double the bonus provided by a single rank of Frenzied Attack, or justify spending two Maneuvers to double the effects of the True Aim talent when you've only got a single rank.


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#7 Shakespearian_Soldier

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 06:23 PM

Thanks for clearing this up folks. I've just been wondering the same thing, after reading up on the Enhance power upgrades for buffing Brawn and Agility.


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#8 Shakespearian_Soldier

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 06:32 AM

This might sound like a very newbie question, but so far my character has tried not to call on the Force for much of anything. Times change, so I need to buff up on my Force rules knowledge...

 

If you purchase upgrades for a certain aspect of a power - say, the Move power's Magnitude upgrades - do you activate each of those upgrades if you spend the listed amount, or do you have to spend the listed amount PER UPGRADE you wish to invoke?

 

Say I have Move's Basic Power + 2 Magnitude upgrades + 1 Strength upgrade. I net 3 Light Side points to spend: the first point is spent to activate the Basic Power - if I then spend 1 point on Strength (increasing Silhouette from 0 to 1) and 1 point on Magnitude, does that mean I can move 3 objects of Silhouette 0-1 within Short Range? Or would I have needed to spend 2 points on Magnitude (one for each upgrade)?


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#9 kaosoe

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 06:45 AM

Spend 1 additional point to activate all strength upgrades purchased. spend 1 additional point to activate all magnitude upgrades purchased, spend 1 additional point to activate all range upgrades purchased.

 

You are correct in your assumptions. Don't forget the discipline check. 1 difficulty per silhouette value.

 

As you know, getting those 3 lightside pips are easier said than done.


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#10 Shakespearian_Soldier

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 07:07 AM

Agreed. Thanks for the clarification!


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#11 ScooterinAB

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 11:13 AM

There is actually a line before the individual powers (in the paragraphs about activating powers and spending points) which says that upgrades can be activated multiple times. Because this is an umbrella rule that just calls out upgrades in general rather than a specific example in any given upgrade, the answer would be yes you can use an upgrade multiple times. Note, however, that each spend basically increases the necessary number of dice and Force rating by one, since there are only at best 2 points on a single Force die. Chances are, unless you've completed 2 spec trees and have a Force rating of 3, you aren't going to be able to activate an upgrade multiple times anyways because you just can't generate enough points to spend.

 

I can provide a page number and quote if folks want (my book isn't with me right now).



#12 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 03:17 PM

There is actually a line before the individual powers (in the paragraphs about activating powers and spending points) which says that upgrades can be activated multiple times. Because this is an umbrella rule that just calls out upgrades in general rather than a specific example in any given upgrade, the answer would be yes you can use an upgrade multiple times. Note, however, that each spend basically increases the necessary number of dice and Force rating by one, since there are only at best 2 points on a single Force die. Chances are, unless you've completed 2 spec trees and have a Force rating of 3, you aren't going to be able to activate an upgrade multiple times anyways because you just can't generate enough points to spend.

 

I can provide a page number and quote if folks want (my book isn't with me right now).

However, many of those Upgrades specify if they can or cannot be activated multiple times, so that statement is a blanket generalization.

 

In regards to Force powers, one is much better off going to the specific description of the Power and it's Upgrades as to what can and cannot be activated multiple times.  For Move, the Strength Upgrades don't say they can be triggered multiple times, while the Range and Magnitude Upgrades do; would be rather silly to include a sentence that specifically says "you can activate this Upgrade multiple times" if the general assumption was that all Upgrades could be activated more than once.

 

I've actually been meaning to shoot a question off about just this sort of thing, though time permitting I may just see if I can bounce it off Jay Little in a couple weeks while at GamerNationCon; he's the guest of honor, and I've been asked to help chair a panel with him on RPG writing.


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#13 ScooterinAB

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 03:49 PM

For Move, the Strength Upgrades don't say they can be triggered multiple times, while the Range and Magnitude Upgrades do; would be rather silly to include a sentence that specifically says "you can activate this Upgrade multiple times" if the general assumption was that all Upgrades could be activated more than once.

 

Simple. It's an example and reminder. Maybe you're more likely to use Range or Mag multiple times than Strength, but there is no reason why it can't be used. This can also easily be explained away as a simple copy-paste or formatting error rather than a specific omission, since this is the only instance of this omission (not exception) in EoE.

 

Page 278, second column, second last paragraph, last sentence. "Unless specified otherwise, each ability may be activated multiple times." Futhermore, the sentences in the upgrades are a reminder about a rule, not a rule in and of itself.

 

What's more important in the Move example is that the passage doesn't specify that it cannot be used, as per the rule on page 278. As I mentioned, it's an umbrella rule that is only trumped if another rules specifically trumps it. Because strength upgrades do not specifically spell out that it can't be used multiple times (vs. non-ranked talents or the effects of certain ranked one specifically saying that it doesn't stack), the umbrella rule is the most appropriate one.

 

Now, this would only apply to "paid" upgrades that can be applied multiple times. The control upgrade for Influence that lets you make a Power check as a part of your skill pool, for example, couldn't be doubled up. You are already adding Force dice as a part of your pool. You can't add the dice as a part of your pool again. Likewise, the power's strength upgrade increases the strain inflicted to 2 from 1. You can't increase it to 2 twice.

 

As a functioning example of this form the movies, Luke was able to briefly move his X-Wing, but ended up failing. Perhaps he was missing the right number of upgrades, and instead used the upgrade multiple times. He failed because he couldn't generate enough points for the effect. Something similar is seen when Vader is able to detect Obi-Wan at planetary range in New Hope, and when Luke is able to do the same with Vader when aboard Shuttle Tyderium in Jedi, even though the ranges would be too far away for any power detailed thus far.

 

But again, no Force user in EoE or AoR is going to have enough dice to roll in order to be activating more than one or two upgrades more than once. So while it is hilariously easy to, say, use Move to push a Star Destroyer at planetary range, it's not an effect that can easily be created with the current limits on Force rating and dice pools.



#14 Shakespearian_Soldier

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 03:54 PM

I've actually been meaning to shoot a question off about just this sort of thing, though time permitting I may just see if I can bounce it off Jay Little in a couple weeks while at GamerNationCon; he's the guest of honor, and I've been asked to help chair a panel with him on RPG writing.

 

 

Let us know what the response is, Donovan! :)


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#15 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 04:14 PM

ScooterinAB,

Also remember that all three of these games were designed in conjunction, and Force & Destiny is most certainly going to offer PCs the chance to go above Force Rating 3, meaning the ability to score multiple Force Points on a die roll will be much more likely.

 

The designers have already said that several elements in the EotE core rulebook were there for future materials, such as talents that refer to crafting rules when crafting rules currently don't exist, or weapon attachments in the core rulebook that can't be used by any weapon in the core rulebook.

 

So while it may not be an issue for a F/S Exile or F/S Emergent, the ability to just simply activate any power or upgrade multiple times is going to be a HUGE thing to consider for Force & Destiny PCs.  The folks that worked on the core rulebooks are smart individuals, and since Force-users and how they were was something that was at least considered when the primary writing for EotE was being done, I'd be very surprised if the FFG design staff weren't already thinking ahead to what happens when Jedi become player-character options instead of just being a background element.


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#16 ScooterinAB

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 04:20 PM

That's well and good, but that doesn't invalidate the rules. What's to say that F&D characters will start with a high enough Force rating and enough XP to pick up all of the powers and upgrades needed to do crazy things? The release of F&D doesn't change anything, not does a single omission of a reminder about a rule. Given a high enough Force rating, Force users will be able to do some very crazy things. They can do that now, assuming that their rating is high enough. You're true in saying that that will not change with the next game.

 

Again, the sentence you quoted is not a rule. It is a reminder about a rule. It's there as a convenience, not as a contradiction to an early and very clear rule.



#17 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 04:26 PM

 

I've actually been meaning to shoot a question off about just this sort of thing, though time permitting I may just see if I can bounce it off Jay Little in a couple weeks while at GamerNationCon; he's the guest of honor, and I've been asked to help chair a panel with him on RPG writing.

 

 

Let us know what the response is, Donovan! :)

 

Certainly will, if only to show ScooterinAB that he's wrong in trying to force a general statement in place of specific rules.


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#18 Darth Sarcastic

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 07:23 PM

At Strength 4 with the Move power you can lift a YT-1300...do you need to be able to lift more? An X-wing comes in at silhouette 3. It could also be that the force users in EoE and AoR aren't meant to be super strong. I'm guessing that FaD will clear it all up.

#19 yeti1069

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 07:52 PM

As a slightly separate query (and I don't recall if I've asked this previously somewhere or not): if you have a Force die commited to an effect, and have another ability that allows you to roll your Force Rating along with a skill check (for example, Athletics from the basic Enhance power), does the committed die, or dice, count against those you'd be able to roll in that circumstance?

 

I'm inclined to say that they do, but I'd like a second opinion on this.



#20 Shakespearian_Soldier

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 07:57 PM

I don't think you can use the committed die - for all intents and purposes, your FR is decreased whilst those dice are committed.


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