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Why is the Tie Advanced considered sub-par?


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#1 Rauhughes

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 09:40 AM

I’m a pretty new player and I’m confused as to the general hating on the Tie Advance (Vader excluded). My main problem in wrapping my head around this opinion is that people rave about how good a 4 rookie pilot rebel list is, and well as far as I can tell the Advanced are superior and the same points as the X-wing.

To elaborate, the Advanced and X-wing only differ stat wise in respect of the 2 attack / 3 defence of the Advance being reversed to 3 attack / 2 defence on the x-wing. The general consensus I’ve heard from Vet players is X-wing is more about survival than the age old glass hammer tactic of most other wargames. Keep your ships alive and keep plinking away. This is a principle I’ve heard many people champion on their blogs, therefore surely the more defensive set up of the Advanced over the X-wing give it the edge in terms of stats. In a straight up fight, the X-wing is rolling 3 against 3, and the Advance 2 against 2, so pretty even, with the X-wing just tipping it in terms of damage dealing ability (thanks to the potential for three hits).

Aside from the stats, as far as I can see almost everything else goes in the Advanceds favour. Two additional actions on its bar, and the two the X-wing can pull, both of the additional actions being excellent defensive actions further improving the survivability of the Advance over the X-wing. Missiles instead of Torpedoes, which from the cards available presently seems to be better (or at least offer more options). A better movement dial to boot too. The only thing the X-wing has over the Advance is the Astromech slot, which granted is pretty damn handy, though those points could be spend on equally handy ship mods for both ships.

The only real area I see the X-wing excelling over the Advanced in is vs big ships. Being able to close to range 1 and open up with 4 attack dice vs 1 evade is a big difference over the Advance’s 3 dice at range 1. However, Cluster Missiles in particular can be used to partially negate this advantage giving the Advance in question 6 dice vs 2. Furthermore, the 2 evade X-Wing becomes such a liability vs 4 dice which are being rerolled and focuses for fun. An Advanced has a much better chance in avoiding or taking minimal damage from such an attack.

Hopefully, I’ve made my confusion clear and was wondering if anyone can post a reply if there is anything I am missing that makes a 4 X-Wing build a huge threat but a 4 Advanced build laughable. I see the following as quite a solid build, based on my experience with the Advance (I only have one) and how I’ve seen 4 X-wing builds perform.

Darth Vader
Cluster Missiles

Tempest Pilot
Cluster Missiles

Tempest Pilot

Tempest Pilot

Ok, the list is lacking a lot less attack dice over say a six tie swarm (4 less) but is packing 20 hull and shield vs 18 hull. Obviously this makes it a little more durable, less models reduce the footprint to avoid enemy fire, and the shields offer you some critical protection to boot. The missiles give you a chance to put some serious hurt on a big ship, and with 3 evade and 5 shields/hull each, even a Han gunner Luke Falcon is going to have a hard time one shot-ting you whilst you close into range and nab a TL and focus for those missiles. After that, it’s a cat and mouse game to focus fire and avoid the enemy with your generally superior mobility and actions. I think it could work based on the success of the 4 X-wing builds, but I’m not so confident as to go out and drop £40 on Advanced’s to try it out on a hunch. I could maybe be tempted with Stealth Devices over the missiles, or a combination of the two, but like I mention early I worry about taking down big ships with just 8 basic attack dice per turn.

Any thoughts or advice? Can you point out what feels like the HUGE elephant in the room that I just cannot see?

Cheers guys
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#2 Johdo

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 09:42 AM

Oh no...not again.


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#3 TheRealStarkiller

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 09:44 AM

I suggest to read this http://community.fan...e-tie-advanced/


                 Sir, rebel transports sighted \                              / Affirmative.                                                           

   (-o-)  (-o-)    (-o-o-)     (-o-o-)     (-o-o-)     (-o-o-)    (-o-)  (-o-) 

 Excellent! Gamma wing, prepare for torpedo run. We'll provide cover.

     |-o-|   |-o-|   |-o-|   |-o-|   (<o>)   |-o-|   |-o-|   |-o-|   |-o-|   


#4 Rauhughes

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 09:51 AM

Thanks for the link. The general consensus seems to bee not enough fire power. Does no one think the sheer survivability of the advance makes up for this? Three dice quickly becomes no dice if you're dead!

#5 TheRealStarkiller

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 09:55 AM

You should read ... its all in there. All answers on all your questions.


Edited by TheRealStarkiller, 13 February 2014 - 09:57 AM.

                 Sir, rebel transports sighted \                              / Affirmative.                                                           

   (-o-)  (-o-)    (-o-o-)     (-o-o-)     (-o-o-)     (-o-o-)    (-o-)  (-o-) 

 Excellent! Gamma wing, prepare for torpedo run. We'll provide cover.

     |-o-|   |-o-|   |-o-|   |-o-|   (<o>)   |-o-|   |-o-|   |-o-|   |-o-|   


#6 Takeda

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 09:55 AM

It's all how you fly it really but the real issue of the tie advanced is the lack of good pilots. Vader excluded of course.

#7 TheRealStarkiller

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 09:56 AM

thats one reason


Edited by TheRealStarkiller, 13 February 2014 - 09:56 AM.

                 Sir, rebel transports sighted \                              / Affirmative.                                                           

   (-o-)  (-o-)    (-o-o-)     (-o-o-)     (-o-o-)     (-o-o-)    (-o-)  (-o-) 

 Excellent! Gamma wing, prepare for torpedo run. We'll provide cover.

     |-o-|   |-o-|   |-o-|   |-o-|   (<o>)   |-o-|   |-o-|   |-o-|   |-o-|   


#8 That One Guy

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 09:57 AM

When comparing attack v. defense dice, it also helps to remember that 1 on 1 the attack dice has a statistically better chance than the evade (4/8 on attack vs. 3/8 on the evade).



#9 Hida77

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 10:05 AM

Short Answer:

 

3 Attack >>>> than 3 defense.  3 attack dice vs 3 defense favors the attacker much more than 2 attack vs 2 defense and its even worse when its 2 attack vs 3 defense.

 

Also the Astromech droid and torp upgrades are much more valuable than the missile slot.

 

That all being said the TIE/A is still underrated IMO, but point for point the X-Wing is a better deal.


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#10 Takeda

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 10:07 AM

If your really want to delve into the issue , the one issue with the tie advanced is that it has shields and the capabilities for missiles.Your paying for those in the point cost of the ship. The empire doesn't necessarily need shields let alone " missiles" , they are point sinks. Those points could have been better used for offense. Now if the tie advanced was able to have a system upgrade, that would make it one sweet ship. which im sure in the future there will be and upgrade card of some sort for that.The tie advance is a maneuverable ship, well capable of out maneuvering the rebels.

#11 Vonpenguin

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 10:13 AM

As was stated, on a flat roll the x-wing's attack is better than the advances evade. this makes the advanced generics somewhat undesirable. Missiles are far more versatile than torpedoes but astromechs are great. Mareek is highly underrated but he does generally need marksmanship or something else to improve his crit odds. Add to that you can't "math out" the true value of a barrel roll and most people rather have a 1 straight than a 5 straight (The only actual difference on their dials) and you have people rejecting them.

 

I still like them and fly them, but then I tend to favor named pilots anyway.



#12 SableGryphon

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 10:13 AM

I should point out that the TIE Advanced does not excel at initial engagements. You get too few attack dice for the points. You can almost double your attack die by switching to Academy Pilots. That said, the TIE Advanced is a great end game ship. It's dodgy and maneuverable and can take a couple hits. That said, it's costly and if it gets targeted early, it's going to vanish in a cloud of waste potential.

 

4 TIE Advanced lists aren't great. They just don't have the power they need. But one (usually Vader because he is amazing) can add a lot of late game potential and mid game harrassment to a list. They are probably priced correctly for their stats, but the configuration of stats is suboptimal. Still, I highly encourage you to explore the craft and give it a try. I'm actually experimenting with Maarek Steele at the moment, since I think his ability is under rated.


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5 TIE Advanced, 6 TIE Bombers, 1 TIE Defender, 10 TIE Fighters, 6 TIE Interceptors, 1 TIE Phantom, 4 Firespray-31s, 5 Lambdas

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#13 Vonpenguin

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 10:17 AM

Good luck Sable, I loved how you brought love to the shuttle and wish you luck on the advance. My advice from experience would be to try and pair maarek with fellow 7+ PS pilots, it helps if they can strip shields for him before his first attack or two. It goes against standard imperial doctrine but when it pays off it pays off like you wouldn't believe.



#14 SableGryphon

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 10:32 AM

Good luck Sable, I loved how you brought love to the shuttle and wish you luck on the advance. My advice from experience would be to try and pair maarek with fellow 7+ PS pilots, it helps if they can strip shields for him before his first attack or two. It goes against standard imperial doctrine but when it pays off it pays off like you wouldn't believe.

Right now I've got the following list I've been tinkering with:

 

Maarek Stele (27)
Marksmanship (3)

Saber Squadron Pilot (21)
Push the Limit (3)

Saber Squadron Pilot (21)
Push the Limit (3)

Scimitar Squadron Pilot (16)
Proton Bomb (5)

Total: 99

 

In this list Maarek is going to be a flanker. His goal is to get behind the enemy, so he may not have a shot the first round of engagement. The other three are going to be in a loose formation. The two interceptors are going to initially go Focus + Evade while the Bomber focuses. The proton bomb should draw lots of fire, allowing the Interceptors to get into dogfight range. If they don't take out the bomber, that bomb is going to cripple their fleet. At that point, Maarek and the Interceptors should be on them. Then it's up to me to fly as well as I possibly can. Keeping the Sabers out of arc and keeping Maarek at range 1 is the key to middle game.


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#15 Rauhughes

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 10:33 AM

Thanks for the replays guys. In just going to take the plunge and grab a few more Advanceds. Hopefully one day they'll get a few more unique pilots and I'll be happy.

#16 Effenhoog

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 10:38 AM

The TIE advanced is less popular because for all the extra points you pay to get one you don't really see the kind of performance increase you might expect.  The TIE advanced has the same attack, agility, and a similar (and I would argue worse) maneuver dial than the standard TIE fighter.  You basically get two shields and a missile slot (which requires you to spend even more points to make use of, and missiles are already of questionable value themselves without the right setup), plus the target lock action.

 

Darth Vader is a good pilot but if you upgrade him at all you are pretty much looking at 1/3 of your squad total for a ship that even at PS9 and performing two actions still only fires 2-3 dice.  It's not that you can't make use of the TIE advanced, or that it's 100% unplayable, it just doesn't have much/anything that really makes you WANT to use it in most builds.



#17 CrookedWookie

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 10:46 AM

I think the Advanced gets a slightly unfair amount of hate.  It was meant to be the Imperial answer to the X-Wing; same stat line but with attack and defense reversed, plus it adds an Evade and Barrel Roll to the action bar at that price, and a better dial.  Looked at that way, it's not a terrible deal.

 

Whether Imperials got spoiled with the dirt cheap TIE is a debate for another thread, but I think there's no question that the price of the TIE tends to skew the perception as to the cost of all other Imperial ships.  IE: Of course everything else looks overcosted in comparison.

 

That said, the problem with the Advanced is hard to define.  Vader is an amazing pilot.  Steele fills an interesting niche, but is undercut a little bit by the lacking firepower of the Adv.  He would have been a beast in an Interceptor.  The game also favors attack over defense, in general; compare the number of hits on a red die to the number of evades on a green.  

Attack: 1 Crit, 2 Hit, 3 Focus, 2 Blank

Defense: 3 Evade, 2 Focus, 3 Blank

 

A couple of things should jump out there.  First, there's no defense die answer for the critical hit.  There's no 'extra special' defense result.  Ignoring that effect, they're 3 and 3 for 'hits' and evades, but the defense die ALSO loses a focus and gains a blank, which is a bad trade.  That generally means that statistically speaking, all things being even, the guy on attack is going to have an edge over the guy on defense.

 

That means that if you take two ships with nearly identical stat lines, the X-Wing and the Advanced, the one geared for offense is going to have a pretty good edge over the one geared for defense, because the game already slants the dice towards the attack to begin with.  

 

It just doesn't fit any niche very well.  It's a decent tanky endgame ship, but lacks firepower.  If you want munitions, you've got the Bomber now with a lot more options.  If you want numbers, you've got TIEs.  Speed and attack, Interceptors put it to shame.  They had to include it, but it's a bit of an odd duck, being sort of the Imperial jack of all trades. 

 

I'm hoping it eventually gets some love and some upgrades, a title, something clearly meant to increase its utility somehow but right now you're either flying Vader, Steele, or (more often) skipping it entirely over ships that fill a specific role better.



#18 Effenhoog

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 10:52 AM

i think you could also say that the advanced often underperforms in Imperial mirror matches where it might not have as many 1-2 agility targets to shoot at, and victory is often decided by who can kill the most ships in the first few rounds of shooting.

 

Also on a slightly more positive note I have been considering trying a TIE advanced list once imperial aces comes out and I actually stop being lazy and go to a tournament.  It is probably (definitely) not the best, but I am not that competitive and it just has some sort of odd appeal to me:

 

 

2x Royal Guard Pilot/push the limit/shield upgrade

2x Tempest Squadron Pilot


Edited by Effenhoog, 13 February 2014 - 10:52 AM.


#19 Khyros

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 11:02 AM

It's already been pointed out that the dice favor the attacker, but there's also chance of wiffing.  This is the main reason that TIE/in don't do well in tourneys.  

 

3 Evade dice (w/o F) have a 24.4% of not dodging anything.  With a F, it drops to 5.3%, which is still significant.

 

If you whiff on an attack, first off, you can reroll with TL, but even if you dont' have an action, oh well, you didn't do damage - that could have just as easily been 3 hits vs. 3 evades and done no damage anyways.

 

If you whiff on a defensive roll, you're more likely to be taking damage, and large amounts of it.  Which is why TIE/in don't do well in a competitive scene... 1/4-1/3 of the points can be wiped off the board in 1 engagement (and this will happen over the course of 3 games).  The TIE/x1 suffers from the same problem.  It's an expensive ship that's hard to hit, but will miff on a roll, and be dead (well, not 1 shot, but taking 3 damage from 1 hit will put a serious dent in it).  

 

This is the same reason that the B wing is becoming more popular than the X wing - you expect to take whatever damage the opponent rolled, and if you roll an evade, cool!  This is the same thing but to a lesser extent with the X wing - you really only expect to dodge 1 damage, if you dodge 2, cool... if you dont' dodge any, that sucks, but oh well.

 

 

So, that is why, in addition to the weighted results of the dice, the attack dice are worth more than the defense dice.  

 

One more example in case I didn't make it clear early - if you roll 3 hits and the opponent rolls 3 evades, he takes 0 damage.  If you roll 3 hits and the opponent rolls 0 evades, he takes 3 damage.  If you roll 0 hits and the opponent rolls 3 evades, he takes 0 damage.  If you roll 0 hits and the opponent rolls 0 evades, he takes 0 damage.  The only way for him to take 3 damage is for a good attack and a poor defense.  A good defensive roll is wasted on a poor attack roll.


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#20 TheRealStarkiller

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 11:25 AM

... , and a better dial. 

 

it isn't. Its worse. The 1 straight is too important in dogfight.


                 Sir, rebel transports sighted \                              / Affirmative.                                                           

   (-o-)  (-o-)    (-o-o-)     (-o-o-)     (-o-o-)     (-o-o-)    (-o-)  (-o-) 

 Excellent! Gamma wing, prepare for torpedo run. We'll provide cover.

     |-o-|   |-o-|   |-o-|   |-o-|   (<o>)   |-o-|   |-o-|   |-o-|   |-o-|   





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