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First Action - Plot Phase Responses


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#1 HastAttack

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 07:44 AM

My opponent has River Blockade in play

Cancel the first location effect triggered by an opponent each round.
 

I have Frostfang Peaks in play - this is usually the first effect which is cancelled each round

Response: After you reveal a plot card, discard the top card of each opponent's deck. (Discard the top 2 cards instead if it is Winter.)
 

I also have copies of Iron Cliffs / Iron Mines

Response: Discard 1 gold token from The Iron Cliffs to save a Greyjoy character from being killed

 

Someone reveals Valar Morghulis as their plot card

 

 

My understanding of the situation is that both locations have repsonses and I could choose to trigger Frostfang first, which gets cancelled, and then trigger Iron Cliffs and save my character(s).

 

Both being responses it is up to me which sequence they occur

 

However I think my timing could be wrong:

 

Iron Cliffs is a Save / Cancel - so does this occur earlier in the framework then the point at which I trigger Frostfang?

 

I think iron Cliffs occurs at step 4a.ii and Frostfang occurs at step 5 (in a recent post by ktom re plot phase)



#2 -Istaril

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 07:49 AM

Iron Cliffs is a Save/Cancel. 

 

Valar's Effect is when revealed passive (goes off before all other passives). It initiates, you have the opportunity to save/cancel (this could be outwit, dupes, Iron Cliffs, whatever), then it resolves killing anyone that wasn't saved. 

 

After that, passives like "Bay of Ice" would go off, followed by responses like Frostfang Peaks. 

 

In this case, River Blockade will catch one of the two Iron Cliff saves. As a note, that means that you'll want to save the character you really want to live *second*, since the first one will be cancelled and you can't use the same response/cancel twice to the same trigger (character A dying).



#3 HastAttack

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 08:37 AM

Thanks - pretty well what I thought but the possible situation arose in a game and my opponents thought all the responses occured at the same time

 

The last comment is news to me

"...you can't use the same response/cancel twice to the same trigger (character A dying)..."
 

I have to ask "why not?" ...

 

so I can try and save the same character multiple times with different responses but I couldn't use ??? .... not sure!

 

What if I had two copies of Iron Mines (non-unqiue / discard) ... or I could even have multiple copies of Iron Cliffs

 

What if I had an unqiue character with two duplicates on and the first attempt at discarding a duplicate to save is cancelled ... could I then discard the second duplicate?



#4 ktom

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 08:52 AM

From the FAQ:

 

(2.4) Responses Per Trigger

If a response or passive ability is triggered, the effect can only occur once per trigger. For example, if Sansa Stark (CORE S9) is in play and you play an attachment on her, Sansa Stark's effect (draw a card) can only be triggered once. (If a second attachment is played on Sansa Stark, her ability can be triggered again.)

 

This boils down to not being able to use the same Response effect on the same card (i.e., piece of cardboard) twice for the same Response opportunity. Keeping in mind that each character that dies is a separate Response opportunity for saves. 

 

Each dupe is considered to create a separate Response effect, so Dupe #2 can be used from the same character if Dupe #1 is canceled. 



#5 Underworld40k

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 08:55 AM

Hast,

The faq states that you cant use the same response to the same trigger on page . 9 point 2.4

That's the why not from the rules POV.

From the explanatory one its to give an inbuilt limit to stop people going, well i won a military challenge with Robb stark (core) so i can now kill the entire enemy board, after all, it dosen't say 1 per challenge or 1 per round right?

If you had 2 dupes your scenario works as described as the duplicates provide the response, so 2 dupes provide 2 instances of response: discard to save (i believe).

*ninja'd by KTOM, i will never win*


Edited by Underworld40k, 13 February 2014 - 08:55 AM.


#6 HastAttack

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 09:31 AM

Thanks

 

I've never liked the Sansa example

 

The Robb one is clearer and  I understand that point - though I had to have that clarified a couple of times i.e. for Starfall

Response: After you win a challenge in which a House Dayne character participated, place 1 gold token from the treasury on that character.
 

What confuses me in this (Iron Cliffs) instance is the "cost" factor in the response - i.e. discard a gold or the location

 

It makes sense that a response without any "cost" can only be triggered once for the one trigger

 

I suppose "cost" is not really the correct term - maybe penalty is a better term and the penalty relates to the initial "price" of marshalling these locations

 

In terms of V-M - if 4 characters are killed, all simultaneously by the same card effect, there are none-the-less 4 trigger points (as clarified by ktom)


Edited by HastAttack, 13 February 2014 - 09:34 AM.


#7 ktom

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 09:41 AM

You are thinking of "instance" incorrectly. It isn't defined in terms of "cost" or "penalty." It is defined in terms of initiation. You cannot INITIATE (or "trigger" if you prefer) the same Response ability/effect/text twice for the same Response opportunity. If you have a different Response ability/effect/text that does the same thing, that's fine (Iron Mines copy #1 & #2, dupe #1 & #2, etc.), or if you have a different Response opportunity, that's fine, too.

But with Iron Cliffs being canceled, it doesn't matter that you're paying the cost with a different gold token; you are trying to initiate the same Response ability on the same card. THAT'S what the rule prevents - the second initiation for the same Response opportunity. Looking at it that way means the rule applies evenly to all Responses, saving you from having to differentiate between what constitutes a "built in" limit and what doesn't (as you seem to want to do in that last post).

#8 HastAttack

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 09:59 AM

Just as a confirmation ...

 

Say I have two copies of Iron Cliffs (IC1 and IC2) in play and V-M kills two of my characters (K1 and K2)

 

I pay one gold from IC1 to save K1 - it is cancelled

I pay one gold from IC2 to save K2 - it is cancelled

 

I can now pay one gold from IC1 to save K2 - but cannot do so to save K1

I can also now pay one gold from IC2 to save K1 - but cannot do so to save K2



#9 -Istaril

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 10:09 AM

Yup.






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