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#21 Mndela

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 08:55 AM

The Spider's Web (Mirkwood Nighmare): When Revealed: The player with the highest threat exhaust all heroes he controls. Then, attach this card to one of that player's heroes...

...if i have all my heroes exhausted (for example, commited), i mustn't attach that nasty card to anybody, isn't? Nice!!! (for example, if you see it is coming by Denethor, i will exhaust all my heroes before it is revealed)


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#22 leptokurt

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 02:49 PM

I think in cards like Treacherous Fog and Chaos in the Cavern, the Then clause will still resolve even if the first part of the card does nothing.  It's in the wording of the card.

 

"Each location gets +1 threat."  OK, so +1 threat to 0 locations.  No problem.  That is successful effect resolution, so per the wording of the FAQ, the Then clause can go ahead and resolve as well.

 

"Return all goblins to the staging area."   OK, move 0 goblins.  No problem, done and resolved.

 

But!  If the card said "Choose a location.  That location gets +1 threat."  Or "Move 1 goblin back to the staging area."  Effects worded in that way would "fail" and the Then clause would not be able to resolve.  The wording in that case requires you to do something specific.

 

(oh, and minor clarification -- it's true that X is zero if there is no value to fill it.  But in the case of A Knife in the Back, there IS a value to fill that X as long as there is an ally on the table.  But maybe that value is "0" anyway, since many allies have 0 attack power).

I think this sums it up pretty well.



#23 booored

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 05:39 PM

except we got the official word (posted a few steps back) that completely trashes this explanation.


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#24 leptokurt

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 05:39 AM

except we got the official word (posted a few steps back) that completely trashes this explanation.

Does it? It just explains why one effect fails and the other one doesn't. "Choose something" is concrete, or immediate, that's why it fails when thee is nothing to choose from. "Each location gets.." is general, or lasting, that's why it doesn't fail.



#25 booored

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 05:47 AM

You read it wrong. Part of the quote you posted was

 

"Return all goblins to the staging area."   OK, move 0 goblins.  No problem, done and resolved.

 

This is exactly the example of what he says produces a fail.. not a resolved.


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#26 leptokurt

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 05:49 AM

The Spider's Web (Mirkwood Nighmare): When Revealed: The player with the highest threat exhaust all heroes he controls. Then, attach this card to one of that player's heroes...

...if i have all my heroes exhausted (for example, commited), i mustn't attach that nasty card to anybody, isn't? Nice!!! (for example, if you see it is coming by Denethor, i will exhaust all my heroes before it is revealed)

I don't think so. That would mean that if only one hero is exhausted when you draw that card, you cannot exhaust all heroes. So if a hero is already exhausted, you cannot exhaust him, but he still qualifies as being exhausted.



#27 booored

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 05:56 AM

no... this is also a IMMEDIATE effect.. as he said. Exhaust all heroes. Not a permanent effect ... according to the text he gave us this dose indeed fail. So yes.. if everyone is exhausted the 2nd part of the text shouldn't resolve.

 

Witch can SHOULD NOT be true.. but this IS what he said. So it is true.

 

 

ffg_fatigue-tld.jpg

 

When first part ends 'if able'? If one player can't exhaust a character, the 2nd part of the treachery doesn't trigger?

 

This card is very sim.. but thr "if able" bit means the then text resolves. That other card dose not have this. At least that is how I see this ruling.


Edited by booored, 18 February 2014 - 06:01 AM.

"People should be less concerned about whether they are being insulted and more concerned if it is the truth"

#28 CJMatos

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:56 PM

no... this is also a IMMEDIATE effect.. as he said. Exhaust all heroes. Not a permanent effect ... according to the text he gave us this dose indeed fail. So yes.. if everyone is exhausted the 2nd part of the text shouldn't resolve.

 

Witch can SHOULD NOT be true.. but this IS what he said. So it is true.

 

 

ffg_fatigue-tld.jpg

 

When first part ends 'if able'? If one player can't exhaust a character, the 2nd part of the treachery doesn't trigger?

 

This card is very sim.. but thr "if able" bit means the then text resolves. That other card dose not have this. At least that is how I see this ruling.

Agree with you boored.

 

If the card text has the "if able" the "then" part should be resolved.

 

If there aren't the "if able", by the current rulling (inserted on FAQ and confirmed) the "then" part shouldn't be resolved.


Carlos José Matos


#29 leptokurt

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 01:12 PM

You read it wrong. Part of the quote you posted was

 

"Return all goblins to the staging area."   OK, move 0 goblins.  No problem, done and resolved.

 

This is exactly the example of what he says produces a fail.. not a resolved.

I can see your point, booored.

 

But:

 

 

"Each location gets X" is  passive.

 

"Returnall Goblins to X" is active.

 

I think if Caleb had used the "active" and "passive" term, it would IMO be much clearer and more fitting.

 

 

And re: Spider's Web - I think there is a diffference between not being able to exhaust a hero and a hero already being exhausted. This action would only fail if the hero had an attachment that says "cannot be exhausted ever". I think it is very clear what the card's intention is*.

 

Another example: if you tell someone to sleep who is already sleeping, he didn't really fail to obey your command.

 

 

* okay, I already said this a couple of times, and then Caleb ruled it otherwise  <_<



#30 KennedyHawk

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 03:21 PM

You read it wrong. Part of the quote you posted was

 

"Return all goblins to the staging area."   OK, move 0 goblins.  No problem, done and resolved.

 

This is exactly the example of what he says produces a fail.. not a resolved.

 

This is still resolved. It states to remove all goblins to the staging area, if there are no goblins you have moved no goblins. If there are 50 goblins you will have moved 50 goblins. If the card read "Move three goblins...", and there were only two available, then (no pun) the "Then" text would not be enabled.

 

In the second example they have added an extra modifier, saying each player must exhaust a character,if able. Then do something else, there is a difference between the two that is clear. But both still follow the rulebook/FAQ rules perfectly.



#31 GrandSpleen

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 04:19 PM

 

This is still resolved. It states to remove all goblins to the staging area, if there are no goblins you have moved no goblins. If there are 50 goblins you will have moved 50 goblins. If the card read "Move three goblins...", and there were only two available, then (no pun) the "Then" text would not be enabled.

 

 

Yeah, this is what I was afraid of.  After the ruling, people still have no agreement about now to interpret cards.  Even to the point of directly contradicting the ruling itself.  KennedyHawk, see booored's post with the official ruling on the previous page in this thread, which basically says the opposite of what you are saying -- if "All enemies return to the staging area" moves no enemies, the effect fails and the "then" clause will not resolve.  All because the enemy movement is not a "lasting effect."

 

specific quote from the ruling (for expediency): "if there are no enemies engaged with players at the time Chaos in the Cavern is revealed, it cannot resolve its immediate effect and you should not resolve the "then" effect" - Caleb

 

This is murky and probably an erroneous ruling, imo.


Edited by GrandSpleen, 18 February 2014 - 04:46 PM.


#32 Noccus

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 01:53 AM

To me, this is a new rule, taken from the ruling by Caleb.

I’ve thought on it and analyzed it.

I’ll try to clarify it from the lengthy explanation given:

 

 

Quote Caleb:

"Immediate effects are effects that are fully resolved as soon as they are triggered, whereas lasting effects affect the game state for a specified amount of time. Because they always say something like "until the end of the phase" or "until the end of the round" lasting effects are easy to identify."

 

 

Quote FAQ:

(1.15) The word “then”

If a card effect uses the word “then,” then the preceding

effect must resolve successfully for the subsequent

dependent effect to resolve.

 

 

 

So in it’s core it says this:

 

-Immediate effect: if it FAILS you DON’T resolve the “THEN” part.

 

-Lasting effect: ALWAYS resolve the “THEN” part.

 

 

It’s not that hard after thinking on it a bit, and I’ll try to follow this new ruling.

Though now the “IF ABLE” text came up.

The way I see it, “IF ABLE” means it is has to be done WHEN YOU CAN.

If not, you should still RESOLVE the “THEN” part as “IF ABLE” means it’s conditional.

 

 

This is how I read it though….


Edited by Noccus, 19 February 2014 - 01:54 AM.

"Not all those who wander are lost"

#33 booored

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 02:09 AM

You read it wrong. Part of the quote you posted was
 

"Return all goblins to the staging area."   OK, move 0 goblins.  No problem, done and resolved.


This is exactly the example of what he says produces a fail.. not a resolved.

 
This is still resolved. It states to remove all goblins to the staging area, if there are no goblins you have moved no goblins. If there are 50 goblins you will have moved 50 goblins. If the card read "Move three goblins...", and there were only two available, then (no pun) the "Then" text would not be enabled.

 
No.. this is the point. As Noccus sumerised....
 

Quote Caleb:

"Immediate effects are effects that are fully resolved as soon as they are triggered, whereas lasting effects affect the game state for a specified amount of time. Because they always say something like "until the end of the phase" or "until the end of the round" lasting effects are easy to identify."

 

-Immediate effect: if it FAILS you DON’T resolve the “THEN” part.

-Lasting effect: ALWAYS resolve the “THEN” part.


The VERY example he uses proves you wrong
 

Quote Caleb:

Chaos in the Cavern : has an immediate effect (return all enemies to the staging area) that if it triggers creates a lasting effect (each Goblin gets +1 threat strength until the end of the phase). If there are no enemies engaged with players at the time Chaos is revealed, then it cannot trigger because no enemies are returned to the staging area. That means the "then" clause will not trigger and Goblins will not get +1 threat strength.


By your way of thinking this would resolve as it returns "0" goblins to the staging area. the text "return all enemies to the staging area" is nearly identical to "Return all goblins to the staging area"
 
The crux of this ruling is the terms IMMEDIATE and PERMANENT.

Edited by booored, 19 February 2014 - 02:29 AM.

"People should be less concerned about whether they are being insulted and more concerned if it is the truth"

#34 Noccus

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 02:45 AM

The Spider's Web (Mirkwood Nighmare): When Revealed: The player with the highest threat exhaust all heroes he controls. Then, attach this card to one of that player's heroes...

...if i have all my heroes exhausted (for example, commited), i mustn't attach that nasty card to anybody, isn't? Nice!!! (for example, if you see it is coming by Denethor, i will exhaust all my heroes before it is revealed)

 

On this I can say people will make mistakes.

Because the ruling makes it quite murky indeed:

 

FAQ:

"Q: If I can’t discard 3 resources from all of my heroes

due to Bitter Wind (KD 56), do I have to partially fulfill

the effect?

A: Yes, players should resolve as much of any

“discard” effect as they are able to."

 

Which means exhaust all available heroes.

None exhausted? Exhaust all. + resolve "then" = attach.

Some exhausted? Exhaust the rest. + resolve "then" = attach.

All exhausted? no exhausting = FAIL IMMEDIATE EFFECT! no resolving "then" = NO attaching.

 

As others stated, this new ruling is odd & murky. 

 

On second thought, maybe we should ask Caleb to rethink his ruling and just let the whole text resolve on every card?


Edited by Noccus, 19 February 2014 - 02:46 AM.

"Not all those who wander are lost"

#35 KennedyHawk

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 08:37 AM

 No.. this is the point. As Noccus sumerised....

 

 

 

Ok I get it, no need to get pissy and explain what someone else just did. It seems like a pretty stupid ruling, in fact other LCGs with the same connecting word Then rule this the opposite way so I'll be curious to see if this gets changed.



#36 Noccus

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 01:02 PM

After a bit of thinking I want this to rule to change.

Who's with me on asking Caleb to reconsider this ruling?
If we get people to sign this, we'll bring this thread to his attention, and ask for a re-ruling?
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"Not all those who wander are lost"

#37 leptokurt

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 01:48 PM

Either change it or clarify the issues that some players seem to have with it.

 

I've never pushed that "like this" buttom until now, but in this case I'm going to do it. Everyone who supports Noccus' suggstion should ptobably simply "like" his proposition, too.


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#38 GrandSpleen

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 03:48 PM

incidentally, we never did get an answer about whether "partial" completion satisfies the first part of the effect, either.

 

So if you play Ered Nimrais Prospector:

 

-You have 0 cards in your deck.. No cards are discarded, and since this is not a lasting effect, the "Then" part of the card fails.

-You have 1 or 2 cards in your deck.  You still have to discard as many cards as you can (per the FAQ), so the effect is partially completed.  Does the "then" clause trigger.

 

 

In my opinion, discarding 0 cards should also count as partial completion (you have discarded as many cards as you are able), but the previous ruling seems to obliterate that idea.



#39 chuckles

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 04:23 PM

Either change it or clarify the issues that some players seem to have with it.

 

In the first instance I would prefer clarification where we have issues... perhaps people could list their issues, then after this is done we  send entire list for clarification... if this doesn't resolve properly then seek change?

 

Currently the way I read it 0 = null rather than a number and therefore a fails when an actual number of cards/readies/exhausts etc is required so fails... logically this makes sense to me, in practice/theme seems a bit silly at times.

 ie you must make everyone go to sleep... but you are all asleep already... FAIL... (to paraphase Lektokurt).

 

incidentally, we never did get an answer about whether "partial" completion satisfies the first part of the effect, either.

 

So if you play Ered Nimrais Prospector:

 

-You have 0 cards in your deck.. No cards are discarded, and since this is not a lasting effect, the "Then" part of the card fails.

-You have 1 or 2 cards in your deck.  You still have to discard as many cards as you can (per the FAQ), so the effect is partially completed.  Does the "then" clause trigger.

 

 

In my opinion, discarding 0 cards should also count as partial completion (you have discarded as many cards as you are able), but the previous ruling seems to obliterate that idea.

Clarity (& consistency) would be good...  maybe if it doesn't have "if/as able" then partial = Fail too? 

 

I prefer your view point on partial though.


"Do not believe him! He has lost all power, save his voice that can still daunt you and deceive you, if you let it."

 





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