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Ered Nimrais


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#1 Mndela

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 12:18 PM

His text is the next one:

Response: After Ered Nimrais Prospector enters play, discard the top 3 cards of your deck. Then, choose and shuffle 1 card from your discard pile back into your deck.
 

A little question: if you dont have cards in your deck, can you anyway choose 1 card from you discard pile and put into your deck?


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#2 GrandSpleen

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 12:43 PM

I would say "no."  Because the card says "Then," the first part must resolve or the second part won't happen at all.  If you can't discard the full 3 cards to resolve the first part, I think the second part can't happen.



#3 booored

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 04:22 PM

Yes you can resolve the THEN text if the first part fizzles.

 

"Then" is not the start of a conditional statement. If you had to do both it would read... "blah blah blah and shuffle 1 card". You see example of this all through out this game. "Then" is basically saying "after that part of the card resolves (or fizzles) do this"

 

Take this card for example... from core

  • If there are no locations in the staging area, nothing get +1Threat... but you still resolve the 35+ part, right?

med_treacherous-fog-core.jpg

 

Here is a modern card though that ALSO uses THEN in a way that resolves regardless of the beginning of the text..

  • If you have no engaged goblins, you still add the +1 will to any already in the staging area, right?

med_chaos-in-the-cavern-ohauh.jpg

 

This card on the other hand uses a self reference in the second statement. So in this case "then" can not resolves as the start fizzled. So there are exceptions to this.

  • If you are not able to select an ally you can not discard it.. right?

med_a-knife-in-the-back-tsf.jpg

 

So in my mind this is pretty clear... THEN is not condition, but it can be self referential. In most cases you resolve "then" separately, independently of the other parts of the card resolution.


Edited by booored, 12 February 2014 - 04:23 PM.

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#4 CJMatos

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 04:33 PM

From FAQ:

 

(1.15) The word “then”
If a card effect uses the word “then,” then the preceding
effect must resolve successfully for the subsequent
dependent effect to resolve.
 
 
So first part must be successfully to do the second...

Edited by CJMatos, 12 February 2014 - 04:33 PM.

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#5 booored

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 04:38 PM

That is ******* retarded.

 

What is the point of writing the cards in English if your not going to use English language rules and then force everyone to learn FAQs,, when they could just write it in ******* correct English in the first place.


Edited by booored, 12 February 2014 - 04:39 PM.

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#6 Mndela

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 05:41 PM

A Knife in the Back: so if the random chosen ally has no attack (neither doesn't damage any hero)...., the ally is not discarded?

 

ffg_a-knife-in-the-back-tsf.jpg


Edited by Mndela, 12 February 2014 - 05:43 PM.

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#7 GrandSpleen

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 07:02 PM

You would still have to discard the ally.  In that case, X still has a value: the value is zero.  The effect is fully resolved, and 0 damage is dealt as a result.  Then discard. 

 

Take that, Imladris Stargazer!


Edited by GrandSpleen, 12 February 2014 - 07:02 PM.


#8 Thanatopsis

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 09:12 PM

i think we may be over thinking this a bit.  I'll look into it further, but here's what I'm thinking

 

"Each location in the staging area gets +1 Threat" 

I look at this as a passive effect that is applied to the staging area.  Even if there are no locations, you still apply the the +1 Threat to the staging area effect. The "then" effect then takes effect.  

If the effect was to choose a location in the staging area to receive +1 Threat, then there is a specific target.  If there are no locations, the effect fizzles and the the "then" effect does not occur.

 

Where i'm going with this is that CJMatos and Booored are both correct.  That is Booored's assessment fits within the context of the FaQ clarification.



#9 booored

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 09:25 PM

med_treacherous-fog-core.jpg

 

 

Well I agree with you, but the FAQ is very clear.... if there are NO locations then the effect fails, and the second part after the "THEN" dose not resolve.

 

 

From FAQ:

 

(1.15) The word “then”
If a card effect uses the word “then,” then the preceding
effect must resolve successfully for the subsequent
dependent effect to resolve.
 
 
So first part must be successfully to do the second...

 

 

 

If the 1st part doesn't resolve.. then the next part doesn't either.. this is clear as day in the FAQ.. It is absolutely ridiculous.. but it is not disputable.

 

 

A Knife in the Back: so if the random chosen ally has no attack (neither doesn't damage any hero)...., the ally is not discarded?

 

med_a-knife-in-the-back-tsf.jpg

 

X is always == to ZERO is there is no value to fill it. So as Spleen said.. it would be 0 dmg then discard. The effect fully fizzles if there is no ally at all to target.


Edited by booored, 12 February 2014 - 09:28 PM.

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#10 GrandSpleen

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 10:04 PM

I think in cards like Treacherous Fog and Chaos in the Cavern, the Then clause will still resolve even if the first part of the card does nothing.  It's in the wording of the card.

 

"Each location gets +1 threat."  OK, so +1 threat to 0 locations.  No problem.  That is successful effect resolution, so per the wording of the FAQ, the Then clause can go ahead and resolve as well.

 

"Return all goblins to the staging area."   OK, move 0 goblins.  No problem, done and resolved.

 

But!  If the card said "Choose a location.  That location gets +1 threat."  Or "Move 1 goblin back to the staging area."  Effects worded in that way would "fail" and the Then clause would not be able to resolve.  The wording in that case requires you to do something specific.

 

(oh, and minor clarification -- it's true that X is zero if there is no value to fill it.  But in the case of A Knife in the Back, there IS a value to fill that X as long as there is an ally on the table.  But maybe that value is "0" anyway, since many allies have 0 attack power).


Edited by GrandSpleen, 12 February 2014 - 10:07 PM.


#11 booored

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 10:18 PM

I think in cards like Treacherous Fog and Chaos in the Cavern, the Then clause will still resolve even if the first part of the card does nothing.  It's in the wording of the card.

 

"Each location gets +1 threat."  OK, so +1 threat to 0 locations.  No problem.  That is successful effect resolution, so per the wording of the FAQ, the Then clause can go ahead and resolve as well.

 

"Return all goblins to the staging area."   OK, move 0 goblins.  No problem, done and resolved.

 

But!  If the card said "Choose a location.  That location gets +1 threat."  Or "Move 1 goblin back to the staging area."  Effects worded in that way would "fail" and the Then clause would not be able to resolve.  The wording in that case requires you to do something specific.

 

your ******* confusing me.. this is exactly what I was saying at the start and everyone told me it was wrong?


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#12 GrandSpleen

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 12:51 AM

I just finished writing a really long answer, and damn am I long-winded, ugh... so here is the short version: It is true that "then" clauses don't resolve if the first part of the card doesn't resolve.

 

But does "then" resolve if the first part of the card is PARTIALLY resolved?  I dunno.  My thoughts are expanded below...

-------------------------------------------------------------------

 

sorry if I wasn't clear...  At first we were talking about "then," and that's when CJ quoted the FAQ.  Now I'm talking about whether or not the first part of the card is considered to be "resolved" if the effect isn't fully resolved.  The more I think about it, the more I am inclined to answer Mndela's original question as "yes."

 

what I'm trying to say is:

 

An effect can be resolved successfully and have no impact on the game state.  You can deal 0 damage, or add 0 threat, and still successfully have resolved an effect.

 

But some cards direct you to do something specific: discard 3 cards, or deal 2 damage, or whatever.  If you can't do that, maybe the effect doesn't resolve successfully.

 

So here are examples of text that (I think) could do NOTHING, and then you would still be able to resolve a subsequent "Then" clause:

 

-Search the encounter deck.  Add any enemies found to the staging area. Then, xxx...

-Discard all attachments.  Then, xxx...

-Give all players each taco in your refrigerator.  Then, xxx...

-Search your sock drawer for any number of black socks, and put all progress tokens inside them.  Then, xxx...

-Draw all copies of the Ace of Spades from your deck.  Then, xxx...

 

In all of those fake examples (did you know they were fake?!),  I used non-specific language: "all, any, each."  Those concepts include "0."  So you can resolve the effect even if you don't have any tacos, or black socks... you get the point.

 

But a card like Ered Nimrais Prospector uses specific language:  discard 3 cards.  If you can't do that, the effect isn't fully resolved, and the "then" clause wouldn't activate.  Still, I could be wrong, because there is this thing in the FAQ:

 

"Q: If I can’t discard 3 resources from all of my heroes

due to Bitter Wind (KD 56), do I have to partially fulfill
the effect?
A: Yes, players should resolve as much of any
“discard” effect as they are able to."

 

So if you play Ered Nimrais Prospector, you can partially fulfill the effect by discarding 1 or 2 cards. Or even 0, I guess.  But does that count as "successful resolution" and allow the "Then" part to activate?  The more I type about this, the more I think "yes it does" (contrary to my original answer).  But I'm not sure... thoughts?


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#13 Mndela

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 03:29 AM

I think one thing is "then" inside a phrase, and other diferent thin is "then" just after a "."

 

ffg_lost-companion-hon.jpg

 

This card is useless if only one player didn't quest any characters (if only one player cant resolve the first part). And we play other way: if any player has not characters commited finally, our total and final quest is 0.


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#14 Noccus

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 01:22 PM

Errr, I'm not too sure about this one.
GrandSpleen here brings up some good points, yet it would make the game very confusing indeed.
My guess, (and I know I played it wrongly with the treachery cards showed as examples) is that the FAQ rule quoted by CJMatos earlier should be followed. In that case, GrandSpleen his first reaction was correct.
The answer is "no" I think, and this will make some treachery cards far less dangerous.
I'm not yet sure if I like this....can I call for a ruling again? :P

Edited by Noccus, 13 February 2014 - 01:54 PM.

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#15 booored

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 04:44 PM

I have a official rule request in... this faq rule completely guts many treacheries. The "returns 0" as still a successful resolution is a possible solution but clunky, I'll keep it in mind as I play I am sure this will cause its own set of problems on other cards.


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#16 Noccus

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 02:46 AM

True indeed. I wonder if it's maybe only for player cards?
But that would not make much sense now would it.

Thanks for requesting a ruling yet again booored.
Really curious about the reply now....
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#17 booored

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 07:12 PM

You provided two interesting examples, and I'm glad you did because they highlight the difference between immediate effects and lasting effects.
 
Immediate effects are effects that are fully resolved as soon as they are triggered, whereas lasting effects affect the game state for a specified amount of time. Because they always say something like "until the end of the phase" or "until the end of the round" lasting effects are easy to identify.
 
Let me use your examples to demonstrate:
 
Chaos in the Cavern : has an immediate effect (return all enemies to the staging area) that if it triggers creates a lasting effect (each Goblin gets +1 threat strength until the end of the phase). If there are no enemies engaged with players at the time Chaos is revealed, then it cannot trigger because no enemies are returned to the staging area. That means the "then" clause will not trigger and Goblins will not get +1 threat strength.
 
Treacherous Fog : works the opposite way. It creates a lasting effect (locations in the staging area gets +1 threat strength) that triggers an immediate effect (players with 35+ threat must discard 1 card). Since this lasting effect affect the game state, it will always resolve. Even if there are no locations in the staging area at the time Treacherous Fog is revealed, locations will still get +1 threat strength until the end of the phase. That means if a location is added to the staging area after Treacherous Fog is revealed, it will get +1 threat until the end of the phase. Because the lasting effect of Treacherous Fog always resolves, it also means the "then" clause will also always resolve.
 
So, if there are no locations when Treacherous Fog is revealed, it still resolves because it has successfully created a lasting effect. However, if there are no enemies engaged with players at the time Chaos in the Cavern is revealed, it cannot resolve its immediate effect and you should not resolve the "then" effect.
 
Cheers,
Caleb
 
 

The FAQ says...
 

(1.15) The word “then” If a card effect uses the word “then,” then the preceding effect must resolve successfully for the subsequent dependent effect to resolve.


So, this is new to me.. dose this now mean that effects also do not trigger if the then fails?

Treacherous Fog
When Revealed: Each location in the staging area gets +1 Threat Strength until the end of the phase. Then, each player with a threat of 35 or higher chooses and discards 1 card from his hand.

Chaos in the Cavern
When Revealed: All engaged enemies return to the staging area. Then, each Goblin enemy gets +1 [Threat] until the end of the phase.

These two, and many like it... if the first fails... dose the 2nd part not happen? Like with the Fog, if you have no locations in the staging area... is that a fail? With Chaos is there are no goblins engaged.. dose that fail?,,, and with those failing.. the part after the "THEN" also fails right? This can not be right!... right?

Hidden Threat, Sleeping Sentry, Ill Purpose, slick footing,. .. etc etc etc.. many cards have effects that can fizzle.. these can not all have the text after the then fail as well right?


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#18 GrandSpleen

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 09:54 PM

that is by far the longest official response I've ever seen

 

and I'm kind of reeling after having read it... right now I do not feel like, having read that, I can go and read a new card and correctly determine whether or not the "then" clause should resolve if the first part of the card did nothing.  And that is not a place I like to be...



#19 Noccus

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 04:09 AM

that is by far the longest official response I've ever seen
 
and I'm kind of reeling after having read it... right now I do not feel like, having read that, I can go and read a new card and correctly determine whether or not the "then" clause should resolve if the first part of the card did nothing.  And that is not a place I like to be...


This nailed it.

I understand the answer, yet it is very easy to make mistakes. I don't like it.
Gonna think a bit on it, if I'm just going to resolve the whole thing on treachery cards like I always did, or not.
In any case, this should be in fat print in the FAQ.
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#20 Mndela

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 08:46 AM

How must we undertand this card?:

 

ffg_fatigue-tld.jpg

 

When first part ends 'if able'? If one player can't exhaust a character, the 2nd part of the treachery doesn't trigger?


Edited by Mndela, 15 February 2014 - 08:48 AM.

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