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Stealth Device vs Shield Upgrade


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#41 Crabbok

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 11:19 AM

 


 

This is just wrong.  If we simplify the scenario and say that if the stealth rolls an evade, it cancels a hit (compared to say... being attacked with 1 hit, vs your 2 evades... the second evade from the stealth did jack as it was fully cancelled before the stealth came into play)

 

 

 

I wouldn't say it did Jack in that case - for one, it's presence manipulated the way your opponent attacked.  He/She might have sent his biggest ship against your Stealth Device'd ship - in hopes of removing the device... and therefore sparing another ship from the threat.   It's more than JUST a numbers game, it's also a mental game - though I DO stand by the numbers as the simple fact that it's only 3/4th the price of the SU speaks volumes.  

 

 

 


The very idea that you can count on having a focus simply doesn't work, you can't count on it every turn for use in defense... Unless you're willing to forgo a kill in order to save that focus for defense. Not to mention the possibility of the other guy blocking your ship so you don't get an action in the first place.
  

 

 

 

I understand your reasoning, but I am looking at this from a natural play perspective.   Typically, the first time I am attacked is likely going to be from a distance, range 3 or maybe 2.   If my Stealth Device is still equipped by the time we are close enough to be bumping into one another... then as far as I'm concerned it's ABSOLUTELY done it's job.  



#42 Khyros

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 11:37 AM

I understand that there's a mental aspect to the game, and that a Fel w/ 2 Focii + Evade + Stealth is a huge deterrent to most people to shoot at, you're relying on your opponent to make the mistake of allowing emotion to sway his tactics (That said, present me R1 targets and Fel through an asteroid at R3 with the above, and I'll shoot at the R1 things anyday... regardless of the SD being present).  And while you should capitalize on the mistake your opponent made, you shouldn't build your strategy around your opponent not knowing what to do.  

 

And point values are not linear either.  It's more than 7x easier to fit 1 point into a squad (for an R2) than it is 7 points for an HLC (you basically have to build your squad around the whereas the R2 is just fitted in at the end).  Likewise, it's easier to fit SD at 3 points than SU at 4 points, more than 1 point worth.  It seems like the designers of the game designed it such that 105-110 point squad would be awesome, forcing you to make 5-10 points of tough choices to get under 100 points.  Therefore, when tacking on the last minute modifiers, SD is often a better choice just because it's 3 points.  But if we're talking strictly point for point cost, SU is better.

 

Some examples of just over 100 point builds that would be great

Howl + 7 Academies 102 points

5 X wings 105 points

5 B wings 110 points

6 A wings 102 points

PS6 squad (with ICT) 105 points

5 Gold w/ ICT 112 points

8 Obsidians 104 points

7 BSP w/ VI 105 points

 

I'm sure you could come up with similar lists for most point values, but it seems like (and would make sense to do this) the designers forced tough choices in order to keep you under 100 points.  (which is one reason I doubt there'll be a point increase for standard tourney - unless it was designed all along to increase at some point).


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#43 VanorDM

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 11:41 AM

He/She might have sent his biggest ship against your Stealth Device'd ship


You can't assume things like that, not when looking at % chances of something happening.

If my Stealth Device is still equipped by the time we are close enough to be bumping into one another... then as far as I'm concerned it's ABSOLUTELY done it's job.


Sure, that's the point though. It may or may not still be there. You're playing the odds on it actually preventing even a single damage. If it does that, then yes it's better then a Shield Upgrade. But if it doesn't, then it's nothing more then a waste of 3 points.

The Shield Upgrade will always prevent 1 point of damage, every single time. The Stealth Device may or may not. So best thing to do, is figure out which is going to give you the better chance for that ship to stick around and earn the points you spent on it.

#44 Vonpenguin

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 12:02 PM

But "preventing a single point of damage" may not actually represent any increase in survivability at all. Arguing the flaws of the stealth device is pointless when part of the argument is that a shield device has no guarantee of helping either. They are both gambles and the stealth device has a lower cost and higher potential payoff.


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#45 Khyros

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 12:31 PM

But "preventing a single point of damage" may not actually represent any increase in survivability at all. Arguing the flaws of the stealth device is pointless when part of the argument is that a shield device has no guarantee of helping either. They are both gambles and the stealth device has a lower cost and higher potential payoff.

 

 

Well in that case - you shouldn't fly anything besides 8 tie swarms.  They have the potential of doing 24 damage per round.  No other list has that potential.  It's a gamble that they're going to do that, but it has the highest pay off.

 

 

And yes, the SU may be completely useless anyways - you could be overkilled, which means that it did nothing because you would have died in the same attack anyways.  But the same could be said for any damage saved via stealth.  Even if it saved 2 damage, you could be killed by 3 hits, in which case it was useless.  So, this thought should be a wash, or potentially hurt the SD even more since saving 2 dmg can be useless, whereas the SU can only save 1 dmg and be useless (which would be the same probability for the SD).  

 

So, we could figure out the probability of being overkilled, and then reduce the value of each of them by that percentage (well, 1-percentage).  But it would be a wash when we're discussing ratios of SD to SU anyways.


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#46 Crabbok

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 12:33 PM

Sure preventing 1 point of damage may be inconsequential as far as crits are concerned... or astoundingly bad die rolling too for that matter...   

 

  All in all I can take 4 Stealths for the price of 3 shields.   I'll take the stealths just about any day.  



#47 Takeda

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 01:27 PM

I don't get why Stealth Device is cheaper.  It's FAR superior in my opinion.  The only exception might be if you are using R2D2 or Draw Their Fire (or both).   In pretty much every other situation the stealth device just flat out seems better to me.     Even the Millennium Falcon for example.  Lets say he gets hit round 1 and loses it.... it's still likely to add an evade to his total rolls, so  still saving him from a point of damage...    What am I missing here?


I would never consider using stealth device on anything that doesn't have 3 defense dice. The trouble with stealth device is people view it as disposable , "it will soak up a couple of hits and be be gone". This is a fallacy and doesn't have to be the case. The more defense dice the more powerful focus becomes. The real power from stealth comes only when flying interceptors with PTL. I rarely us focus to modifying anything except defense roll and alway take the second action to evade. So if I'm being attacked at range 2 from say an xwing (avg hit 2), their first shot is already cancelled. Beyond that I only need to roll one focus or evade on four dice to cancel the other hit. Stealth device is cheap due to the fact it is only good combined with other things to break it.
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#48 Khyros

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 01:36 PM

 

I don't get why Stealth Device is cheaper.  It's FAR superior in my opinion.  The only exception might be if you are using R2D2 or Draw Their Fire (or both).   In pretty much every other situation the stealth device just flat out seems better to me.     Even the Millennium Falcon for example.  Lets say he gets hit round 1 and loses it.... it's still likely to add an evade to his total rolls, so  still saving him from a point of damage...    What am I missing here?


I would never consider using stealth device on anything that doesn't have 3 defense dice. The trouble with stealth device is people view it as disposable , "it will soak up a couple of hits and be be gone". This is a fallacy and doesn't have to be the case. The more defense dice the more powerful focus becomes. The real power from stealth comes only when flying interceptors with PTL. I rarely us focus to modifying anything except defense roll and alway take the second action to evade. So if I'm being attacked at range 2 from say an xwing (avg hit 2), their first shot is already cancelled. Beyond that I only need to roll one focus or evade on four dice to cancel the other hit. Stealth device is cheap due to the fact it is only good combined with other things to break it.

 

 

But you were 76% likely to roll at least 1 evade w/o a focus or stealth already.  If you add focus, you're 95% likely to roll at least 1.  Which means that the stealth device is only working that 5% of the time when you roll 3 blanks.  And then you only have a 62.5% of the stealth rolling the final evade.  So, in this attack, you gaining an average of .03125 hull from the 3 points of SD, with a 37.5% of adding more.

 

Now, the SD could help you save your evade token, as 3 dice only have a 32% chance of rolling 2+ evades, or 68% w/ focus.  With 4 dice, this goes up marginally to 48% or 85%.  So, if you want to see what the probability that stealth keeps your evade token for that attack, you have to say that you rolled 1 evade out of the first 3 dice (44%) and then the 4th from stealth rolled an evade (37.5%)... this generates a 16.5% that the stealth saved you your evade token.  With focus, it actually goes down to 15% (since you're much more likely to not need the 4th die from stealth).


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#49 Takeda

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 01:56 PM

I don't get why Stealth Device is cheaper.  It's FAR superior in my opinion.  The only exception might be if you are using R2D2 or Draw Their Fire (or both).   In pretty much every other situation the stealth device just flat out seems better to me.     Even the Millennium Falcon for example.  Lets say he gets hit round 1 and loses it.... it's still likely to add an evade to his total rolls, so  still saving him from a point of damage...    What am I missing here?

I would never consider using stealth device on anything that doesn't have 3 defense dice. The trouble with stealth device is people view it as disposable , "it will soak up a couple of hits and be be gone". This is a fallacy and doesn't have to be the case. The more defense dice the more powerful focus becomes. The real power from stealth comes only when flying interceptors with PTL. I rarely us focus to modifying anything except defense roll and alway take the second action to evade. So if I'm being attacked at range 2 from say an xwing (avg hit 2), their first shot is already cancelled. Beyond that I only need to roll one focus or evade on four dice to cancel the other hit. Stealth device is cheap due to the fact it is only good combined with other things to break it.
 But you were 76% likely to roll at least 1 evade w/o a focus or stealth already.  If you add focus, you're 95% likely to roll at least 1.  Which means that the stealth device is only working that 5% of the time when you roll 3 blanks.  And then you only have a 62.5% of the stealth rolling the final evade.  So, in this attack, you gaining an average of .03125 hull from the 3 points of SD, with a 37.5% of adding more. Now, the SD could help you save your evade token, as 3 dice only have a 32% chance of rolling 2+ evades, or 68% w/ focus.  With 4 dice, this goes up marginally to 48% or 85%.  So, if you want to see what the probability that stealth keeps your evade token for that attack, you have to say that you rolled 1 evade out of the first 3 dice (44%) and then the 4th from stealth rolled an evade (37.5%)... this generates a 16.5% that the stealth saved you your evade token.  With focus, it actually goes down to 15% (since you're much more likely to not need the 4th die from stealth).

The 4th defense dice is nice when your getting squirly at range one.

#50 Crabbok

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 02:05 PM

I'm going to make a video tonight - a LIVE action scenario of a ship approaching the enemy with stealth device.  

 

Since most people tend to like putting it on a 3 AGI ship like an interceptor, and most prefer shields on a 1 AGI ship like a Y-Wing... I'll go for balance and I'll try an X-Wing - I'll even say Biggs for this version.  Biggs vs 2 Tie/ln, a Bountry Hunter, and Soontir Fel with PTL .   I'll run each attack several times to get a rough average and post my results with my obviously biased analysis at the end!   lol


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#51 StevenO

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 02:19 PM

In some ways the reason people like Stealth Device on their high Agility ships is because it helps average the defense.  I mean the more dice the roll the more you should expect to get an "average" range of results.  Rolling 4 dice for defense may give an [evade]x4 or [blank]x4 result but you'll expect something between those extremes with a [eye] or two thrown in.



#52 WonderWAAAGH

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 02:44 PM

I'm pressed for time, so I haven't read this thread thoroughly, but has anybody pointed out that ships aren't the only things you can take damage from? Asteroids, APL, some crits and even some EPTs can cause damage that a shield or hull upgrade would mitigate where any number of green dice would not. Just one more consideration.

Personally, I'm going to try running Interceptors with Hull Upgrades once I get my Imperial Aces pack. Taking a little randomness out of a list that's already vulnerable to bad luck cannot be a terrible thing.

Edited by WonderWAAAGH, 13 February 2014 - 03:55 PM.

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#53 Khyros

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 03:11 PM

I'm pressed for time, so I haven't read this thread thoroughly, but has any pointed out that ships aren't the only things you can take damage from? Asteroids, APL, some crits and even some EPTs can cause damage that a shield or hull upgrade would mitigate where any number of green dice would not. Just one more consideration.

Personally, I'm going to try running Interceptors with Hull Upgrades once I get my Imperial Aces pack. Taking a little randomness out of a list that's already vulnerable to bad luck cannot be a terrible thing.

 

That's a good point, I'm not quite sure how it would affect the comparision though, as you'd be taking 1 damage either way, and it wouldn't strip stealth.  So unless you plan on killing yourself by running through asteroids and never taking damage from the opponent, it shouldn't matter.


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#54 StevenO

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 03:58 PM

I'm pressed for time, so I haven't read this thread thoroughly, but has any pointed out that ships aren't the only things you can take damage from? Asteroids, APL, some crits and even some EPTs can cause damage that a shield or hull upgrade would mitigate where any number of green dice would not. Just one more consideration.
.

 

All valid ways to take damage but consider: 

Asteroids:  Ideally you should never run into them.  If you don't hit them they don't cause damage and thus they are never a concern.

 

APL (and other non-attack damage):  Something you may be able to avoid but also something the does NOT remove SD.

 

Crits:  If you're taking these it doesn't matter because your SU and/or SD are already gone! Proton Bomb doesn't care either.

 

EPT:  Which ones are you thinking about?

 

None of these matter because either they don't strip the SD, rely on you flying poorly, or don't care about either of them.

 

I believe a better "discussion" would be hull upgrade vs stealth device as both cost 3 points.  The HU loses the crit protection a SU can provide but is otherwise just as good.  The HU may even be BETTER than a SU for those 2 hull ships which could be destroyed by a single Proton Bomb dropping a Direct Hit underneath their shields.



#55 WonderWAAAGH

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 04:29 PM

Unfortunately, flying well is not always enough to keep your ships alive. Remember that so long as there is an opponent sitting on the other side of the table, some things will be within your control and some will not. Losing stealth to a 'hit' is less relevant to my overall point than is simply surviving through more damage. Of course you never want to fly over asteroids, but sometimes it's more tactically advantageous to do so. Sometimes you'll get stranded on one by an opponent's ion weaponry. As good a player as you might be, there is no way to always know where your opponent is going to move, with or without APL. On rare occasions you might want to use Daredevil, and on (hopefully) even rarer occasions you might receive a Console Fire, Minor Explosion, Minor Hull Breach, or Stunned Pilot critical effect. These things happen whether your situation is ideal or not, and we all know how Murphy's Law is the only mathematical truism that ultimately matters. When you take Stealth Device over Shield/Hull Upgrade, you're not only gambling that you'll roll more evades, but also gambling that you'll be able to roll any dice at all.

I've left out discussion of Proton Bombs and the like (e.g. Vader) because their effects, especially on low hull vehicles, should already be readily apparent. I think I would take Hull Upgrade over Stealth Device on an A-Wing any day of the week.

Edited by WonderWAAAGH, 13 February 2014 - 04:55 PM.

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#56 Moore1980

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 04:39 PM

Hum, curious? When Aces hits and Royal Guard Tie title comes into play.. would it be possible to take 2 shield upgrades, or are you restricted to one type? like a shield and stealth, ect, ect.



#57 DraconPyrothayan

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 04:42 PM

Hum, curious? When Aces hits and Royal Guard Tie title comes into play.. would it be possible to take 2 shield upgrades, or are you restricted to one type? like a shield and stealth, ect, ect.

two DIFFERENT modifications, I'm afraid.

Stealth + Targeting seems to be the best case scenario, to me :)



#58 Sithborg

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 06:12 PM

<prays that the argument over what "different" means doesn't come back>



#59 StevenO

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 06:20 PM

Funny seeing Ion weapons mentioned.  Stealth Device works just fine against those (when active) but while that Shield Upgrade can buffer the damage you still suffer the Ionization.  If you're running onto an asteroid because you've because you've been ioned you've already blown your modification's usefulness but Stealth could let you avoid the Ion weapon while you'll always suffer it with the shield.

 

 

I could see any one of the Royal Guard pairing being useful depending on how much you want to spend.  Although it may be the most expensive I can see where the Stealth/Shield combo could be the best for survival.  Solves the issue with this thread as you have the Stealth Device to help avoid damage but the Shield to avoid what could easily be the critical hit that finally overcomes the SD.  Granted that is 7 points that disappears with one shot but then you're down to a (relatively) untouched Interceptor.


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#60 Crabbok

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 06:51 PM

Ok here is the test: 


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