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#41 DanteRotterdam

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 04:34 PM

Let me try to clarify a little bit. When I said the difference between a personal and commercial license is the ability to charge, I'm talking about the real world. In a gaming context I can easily imagine it being the same.

I'm right there with you in wanting the pilot to be a part of the team, but you have to be realistic about it. If he's the only one that's paying for gas, port fees, registration, maintenance (and even upgrades) then he's going to be unhappy with not having money to spend on fun like everyone else. Even if he's not, the party is going to end up getting stranded because he won't always have enough/make enough to cover upkeep.

You seem to be getting back to this every time. Who is having this trouble and couldn't deal with it at the table on top of that?

Really, imagine the conversations. Heck, have your players sit down and do it. Introduce a brand new pilot. Unless he's completely shirking his responsibility, that is, not even remotely playing in character (and that is bad role-playing), that character is going to be just like Han in ANH: Here's my rate. If things go well and he stays, upkeep has to be dealt with and the only fair way to do it is for everyone to contribute equally. It's not even hard to do it.

So, in this scenario I have to imagine quite a few things. First, the characters start of as strangers. Second, the pilot is brand new and unfamiliar with the others. Third, the party want to hire a ship/pilot. Fourth, we go straight into book keeping. Fifh, negations about money for gas need to be roleplayed to such an extend that would bore the tears from the eyes of everyone at the table. (Isn't that, really, bad roleplaying, I might ask?) You see why I don't get the problem? There sure are a lot of ifs in this scenario. A little down the road you start talking about realism, how real is the above scenario?

Now, if you, as a GM, don't want to worry about finances, that's different.

Or, you know, I am used to playing with adults for whom the thought of having the pilot pay for everything (even though he doesn't own the ship) would never even cross their minds.

It's like playing D&D and no one ever buys food. Some groups just don't track the piddly stuff and I'm cool with that. But the questions was posed: Who pays for it? So it's important to some people. For those people, there's only one way to do it.

No. There is not only one way to do it. Again you push your game as THE game. What works for you or me might not work for others at all.

It's not about keeping a player at the table, but keeping the character in the group. The characters have to have motivation. Screwing each other over, whether it's stiffing on the tab or conspiring to steal a ship, might be fun for the players, but it absolutely destroys the characters working together.

Again a lot of ifs and buts go into this. If the pilot is responsible for upkeep of the ship and gas, perhaps the technician is for the droids, or the medic for his bacta, etc. There could be many ways to go about this stuff, but you immediately get into this righteous anger about pilots and their fees and upkeep which to me just seemed a bit out of place. You're making assumptions that really have no support as far as I can tell. All you do is say "that's wrong". While a little further in the post you actually critize the system as it is written on top of that with another opinion disguised as a fact, I'll remind you when we get there...

I was playing an old school Ranger in AD&D with a new group. This group was a bunch of power gamers. Tons of high power spells and magic items. Kill one monster after another. Not particularly interesting. I never got to participate in any fighting because they were such a well-oiled machine that the big beastie was always dead before it was my turn. Well, they messed up and I had a chance. I had a bead on a dragon, arrow sighted, called shot to the eyeball. I rolled two natural 20s in a row (the DM required a second one) for the hit, then rolled max damage (complete with absurd bonuses that this group had given me because they felt I was under-powered). Killed the dragon and they were ticked. Shortly after we broke for dinner. The guy who invited me took me aside to let me know that the group felt that I was a power gamer and they didn't want me playing any more. I rolled a grand total of three dice in five hours. I literally laughed out loud and said okay and left.

Sounds like a sad group of gamers if you ask me. However, I fail to see the relevance to the discussion at hand.

With another group I was playing a WEG Jedi in ANH era. I asked if it was okay and the GM said sure, no problem. First time I went to use my lightsaber he informed me that it had been stolen. Apparently it happened the day before. Apparently I never noticed being bumped into in a non-busy place. I couldn't find supplies to build a new one even if I had known how (apparently I had forgotten how I did it the first time). The group wouldn't help me find it, either immediately or after the mission. So my character went off on his own to find it, which resulted in him leaving the party.

So, your lightsaber prevailed over the rest of the party and your character left? And that is somehow the fault of the others? Or were they being assholes and made you feel unwelcome? I really don't see what these anecdotes bring to the discussion we are having to be honest...

Same group, I had a WEG tramp freighter captain. Same sort of stuff we've been talking about here. I wasn't saying they had to pay me. I was saying they had to help with costs. They wouldn't and we got stranded on Nal Hutta. That is, I got stranded on Nal Hutta. I was back with the ship trying to get it working and then out of impound while they were off on a mission, and they went off-world. I took what was supposed to be a quick side mission for a little cash and a part and ended up never seeing the party again. A short while later I left the group.

Are you sure these guys wanted you at their table? I am not trying to be rude here but it comes across as them trying to make you miserable and having you leave on your own accord without them having to man up and kick you out of their game.

Edited by DanteRotterdam, 13 February 2014 - 04:36 PM.


#42 DanteRotterdam

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 04:34 PM

"The party gets a ship" is just a bad rule if that's all there is. Someone has to own it (and it really shouldn't be a 120K ship, it should be 40K used, tops). If it's a benefactor/creditor of some sort that's cool, but it still comes down to one person owning it. I don't know about you guys, but I would never let a player start with a ship free and clear.

Remember that reminder a few paragraphs up? This is what it was for. It is neither a bad rule nor does "someone need to own it". Also the ship you get is 120.000credits as per the rules. Of course you can houserule these things but don't say that it is wrong, or bad or that it needs to be "my way".

Games in high tech environments frequently start off with some players having expensive, high tech gear, including starships.

Not the game we are discussing here. Here the starting capital is quit slim, however the party gets a ship to begin with

It's generally understood that the character is not just now striking out on his own. Luke may have been 1st Level, but Han sure as heck was not.

No idea, what this means. Of course a player in an rpg isn't just now stricking out on his own. That would be one boring rpg... But then you use that Luke and Han level thing to illustrate it.... I really don't get your point here. You could use the back story easily by having it involve the ship become the propertymof the group. Perhaps they stole it, borrowed it, bought it with combined capital, etc. Not many captains own the ship they command.

There's nothing ridiculous about it, and is really just an opportunity for adventure. Looks like you have a nice ship. Too bad you couldn't outrun that customs corvette and had to dump your cargo before they boarded you. Looks like the Hutts have put a bounty on you. Again. Or maybe you did lose the pink slip in a game of sabaac, but you decided to skedaddle before paying up, and now he's after you. There's lots to on out there.

yeah... Okay... Great. I guess...

That said, if "the party gets the ship" then "the party pays the upkeep." I don't know why this is so hard to understand.

Hey we agree on something! :)

May I ask, did you play EotE already? I assume you haven't am I correct?

Edited by DanteRotterdam, 13 February 2014 - 04:42 PM.


#43 Hombre

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 08:20 PM

Maybe your idea of roleplaying is to just make stuff up even when it doesn't make any sense. Yes, it's escapism, but your roles also have to be believable. In no way have you come up with any alternative that's even remotely believable. Instead, you insist that I'm trying to push my way or the highway. All I'm saying is to stop and think about the situation and realize what would actually happen. I'm still waiting for someone to offer an alternative, let alone offering one that has some chance of actually being equitable and working.

 

After re-reading your responses, you really have no idea what you're talking. Sorry to have to be explicit, but considering your derogatory responses there's really nothing else to say. You guys are advocating screwing over your own players and characters and saying that's it's good role-playing. You've mis-characterized most of what I've said, and several times come out and said you don't understand what I'm saying. Good luck with your gaming.

 

I thought the anecdotes would just be kind of humorous and lighten the mood since there seems to be a belief that I've had nothing but bad experiences when nothing could be further. I still have no idea how you got the "so the lightsaber prevailed?" line.


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#44 Hombre

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 08:22 PM

Don't bother responding. There were so many attacks in your post that you've proven that you're not worth talking to. Playing with adults? Please. Mutual respect? That's what I've been advocating the entire time, yet you seem to think that that's achieved by belittle people that don't agree with you.


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#45 HappyDaze

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 12:11 AM

Don't bother responding. There were so many attacks in your post that you've proven that you're not worth talking to. Playing with adults? Please. Mutual respect? That's what I've been advocating the entire time, yet you seem to think that that's achieved by belittle people that don't agree with you.

I would suggest that you exercise your ability to Ignore posters that you find unpleasant. If you'd like help finding out how to do that (it's buried under a few clicks), just send me a PM.


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#46 DanteRotterdam

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 01:28 AM

Don't bother responding. There were so many attacks in your post that you've proven that you're not worth talking to. Playing with adults? Please. Mutual respect? That's what I've been advocating the entire time, yet you seem to think that that's achieved by belittle people that don't agree with you.


Wow... Just... Wow. What attacks? We were having a discussion on something where we are not having the same opinion?
You would be wise to look at what you write and then think about who exactly makes the attacks here.
How is me telling you that I game with adults in any way an attack? Also telling someone they need not bother reply because you don't like what they are telling you. Such arrogance, if that was your behaviour at those gaming tables then no wonder you got frozen out.

Maybe your idea of roleplaying is to just make stuff up even when it doesn't make any sense.
what in my reply didn't make sense? Be implicit.

Yes, it's escapism, but your roles also have to be believable. In no way have you come up with any alternative that's even remotely believable.
Again, what was wrong with the examples I gave, you do realize you are still doing the "only my way of gaming is correct" thing.

Instead, you insist that I'm trying to push my way or the highway.
well... You are. Even now.

All I'm saying is to stop and think about the situation and realize what would actually happen. I'm still waiting for someone to offer an alternative, let alone offering one that has some chance of actually being equitable and working.
I suggest you take the blinders of your eyes and reread the replies others have given. You know, the ones you struck down as "bad fun"! (Perhaps this was somewhat crude but apperently no matter how much I sugarcoat things they are still perceived as attacks anyway.)

After re-reading your responses, you really have no idea what you're talking.
I am not the one that had to leave two gaming groups or is telling others to play the game his way or otherwise they would be doing it wrong.

Sorry to have to be explicit, but considering your derogatory responses there's really nothing else to say.
right....

You guys are advocating screwing over your own players and characters and saying that's it's good role-playing.
For the love of god.... I never advocated such a thing. All I've said was that you pushed your concept unto others too much and you keep doing that. No players at my table ever get screwed by the others.

You've mis-characterized most of what I've said, and several times come out and said you don't understand what I'm saying.
Yeah.. About those attacks... You have some balls coming up with such a statement right after stating I advocate players screwing each other over, and I don't see why saying I don't understand a certain part of someone's post is a bad thing.

Good luck with your gaming.
Thanks, you to.

I thought the anecdotes would just be kind of humorous and lighten the mood since there seems to be a belief that I've had nothing but bad experiences when nothing could be further. I still have no idea how you got the "so the lightsaber prevailed?" line.
Mind you, that was not a line. It was a question. I was trying to understand what the point was of making a character and then immediately leaving the party to search for parts for a new lightsaber. Must be that "realism" you are so fond of.

Edited by DanteRotterdam, 14 February 2014 - 01:32 AM.


#47 ragnar63

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 07:53 AM

To DanteRotterdam and Hombre, please cool it guys. You obviously do not get each other and never will, so leave the backbiting at the table.

 

However we are talking about potentially a 120,000 credit ship and who supplies it or owns it. It seems to me that FFG were still playing the beginning scenario from the Beginners box when they were designing the Beta and have never got out of that thinking. If the PC's steal their ship then they all own it, thats fine. However what is not in the rules is how much the Captain or Group charge passngers or for cargo on a regular run. Is it so much per parsec, per sector, per planet on a hyperspace route, what?

 

As far as I can make out in Star Wars 4 Luke's speeder new, would have cost 4500 credits. Assuming he got only a quarter of that and that paying Han for transport to Alderaan cost them nearly all the money means that it must have cost 1100 credits or so for him and Obi-Wan together. However it would be nice to get some figures on this, for those trips where there isn't a paying customer to shift drugs or mass murderers to other locations.


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#48 rhombusleech

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 11:17 AM

It sounds like some groups/GMs are too focused on the nuances of ship ownership and meta gaming a bit too much. This is Star Wars, not Sim Starship. It's probable your group would rather be out adventuring rather than calculating passenger rates and maintenance fee responsibilities. If these things were that important to the game then I'm confident that FFG would have put it in the book. 
 
I also feel like the 'owner' of the ship is determined by how each individual group defines their origins. Is this a group that has worked together for years as cargo transporters? Then they likely 'co-own' the vessel as a group. Are they newly united via individual circumstances that brought them together? Then one of them likely had their own vessel that brought them here. Either way, let the group decide who owns it. If they are unable/unwilling, then they will likely accept what the GM decides.  

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#49 DanteRotterdam

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 06:43 PM

It sounds like some groups/GMs are too focused on the nuances of ship ownership and meta gaming a bit too much. This is Star Wars, not Sim Starship. It's probable your group would rather be out adventuring rather than calculating passenger rates and maintenance fee responsibilities. If these things were that important to the game then I'm confident that FFG would have put it in the book. 
 
I also feel like the 'owner' of the ship is determined by how each individual group defines their origins. Is this a group that has worked together for years as cargo transporters? Then they likely 'co-own' the vessel as a group. Are they newly united via individual circumstances that brought them together? Then one of them likely had their own vessel that brought them here. Either way, let the group decide who owns it. If they are unable/unwilling, then they will likely accept what the GM decides.


Thank you!
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#50 HappyDaze

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 07:13 PM

I'm not sure why the issue of ship ownership is equated with metagaming. I'd think that it's more an issue of maintaining verisimilitude than anything.


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#51 UHF

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 07:27 PM

I'm not sure why the issue of ship ownership is equated with metagaming. I'd think that it's more an issue of maintaining verisimilitude than anything.

Yep.  Some players are more detail oriented.  I know a pile of mathematicians who are quite into crunching numbers.  Go figure.  To each his own.



#52 ragnar63

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 04:21 AM

 

It sounds like some groups/GMs are too focused on the nuances of ship ownership and meta gaming a bit too much. This is Star Wars, not Sim Starship. It's probable your group would rather be out adventuring rather than calculating passenger rates and maintenance fee responsibilities. If these things were that important to the game then I'm confident that FFG would have put it in the book. 
 

 

Each to their own! However why have FFG put in the costs of owning a starship in the rules, without putting in rules for how you earn those credits when you are not transporting mass murderers and proton torpedoes for Jabba the Hutt. FFG have only half done the job. If people do not want to number crunch then they do not have to, if they do thay should have the rules to do it. To only half do the job is half assed.



#53 mouthymerc

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 07:51 AM

I love that. "If you don't want to use the rules then you don't have to, but FFG should have put them in." How about "If you want to use them make them up for yourself, because FFG felt it wasn't needed in a game focused on adventuring." Why waste time and effort on something very few people are interested in? That effort is better expended elsewhere.


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#54 ragnar63

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 02:27 PM

I love that. "If you don't want to use the rules then you don't have to, but FFG should have put them in." How about "If you want to use them make them up for yourself, because FFG felt it wasn't needed in a game focused on adventuring." Why waste time and effort on something very few people are interested in? That effort is better expended elsewhere.

Then why put in the costs of running a ship?


Edited by ragnar63, 16 February 2014 - 04:59 AM.


#55 mouthymerc

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 02:53 PM

Because the ship is commodity used by the characters like a blaster or a lightsaber and needs a value. But this is a game of adventure not of ship ownership. A ship is just another tool like blasters and lightsabers. If you want the tedium of player characters deciding who pays for the gas and such, feel free to incorporate such, but don't expect support for something that a majority of people gloss over in the narrative. And neither is FFG going to waste time and energy on something very few people want. Its a waste of pages better used elsewhere.

 

If you think it deserves more attention, why not create a fan-based document to share? Many others have done so to great effect.


Edited by mouthymerc, 15 February 2014 - 02:54 PM.

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#56 Desslok

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 06:13 PM

Interestingly I find myself in just such a situation, an issue of ship ownership just a couple of weeks ago.

 

First, this isn't a case of a player whining about bad things happening to a character. If I were to tabulate the bad things I have perilously loaded my character(s) down with throughout my gaming history, I could write a freakin' book. So no, this isn't just sour grapes.

 

So my character stole her daddy mint, vintage, beautiful, cherry YT-1300, just before the start of the game. At the end of the first game, after all the characters are introduced and we're all teamed up, I hired them as crew, all profits are split 5 ways - four crew members and one to the ship for maintenance and fees and upgrades and whatnot. Pretty equitable arrangement, no issues there, and everything is cool.

 

But then last week, the ship got shot down - 0 hull, couple of serious crits, GM said the ship was more or less un-salvageable. However we managed to pinch another (more or less) comparable ship - so we're back to zero again. Everything good, right? Not really - now it's everyone's ship, since it was acquired during the course of play. Meanwhile while everyone's been buying guns and armor and cool toys, I've been sinking all my personal profit into sexy new ship toys, improved sensors, bits and pieces from the Galaxy Guide 6 soucebook,

 

And somehow - and I know this is just stupid because were talking about imaginary people in an imaginary setting, we're playing cops and robbers out behind the school - I cant help feeling just slightly put out that my ship has now become community property.

 

So I can kind of see where "The owner is the owner" is coming from. And no, I realize that the story should be served above all things, but there's just this stupid, nagging quiet voice in the back of my brain saying "Man, now I have to share my ship!" Petty, I know - and I know I'll get over it (and we're all good friends and I'll burn my core rule book to ashes before I let an imaginary spaceship get between real world friends), but it's still there.


Edited by Desslok, 15 February 2014 - 06:14 PM.


#57 Ahrimon

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 10:54 PM

I'd handle this out of game and then role-play it in game.  Your character should approache the others and lets them know that they need to pay equally into the ship since it's communal property and they each owe you their fair share of the upgrades.  If they don't have cash on hand, then any upcoming shares should go to you until everything is balanced out.  Then if any repairs or modifications need to be done, everyone has to chip in equally.

 

Or, since you are putting money into the ship, it's now X% more yours based on what you are putting into it.  i.e.  It starts out as a 100k ship so each of you has 25k worth.  Now it's a 150k ship.  They have 25k worth and you have 75k worth.  So if you sell it, you get half and they can split the rest.

 

I'd recomend the first option.

 

In the game I'm in our group is a company.  Half of all profits go to the company and the rest gets split by the party.  We use that half for all repairs, upgrades, etc.  Or we will once we get a chance to.  It's still early in the game.



#58 Desslok

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 02:17 AM

I'd handle this out of game and then role-play it in game.

 

Well, my first rule, of any game and not just EotE, is talk about things first. So everything is cool now, with some hand waving and some creative storytelling.

 

Remember kids, always talk to the GM first! (:



#59 Bloodtooth

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 05:45 AM

I love that. "If you don't want to use the rules then you don't have to, but FFG should have put them in." How about "If you want to use them make them up for yourself, because FFG felt it wasn't needed in a game focused on adventuring." Why waste time and effort on something very few people are interested in? That effort is better expended elsewhere.

 

I was looking for advice on this thread not sarcasm and backbiting. Ragnar had a perfectly valid point. It is obvious that you only like playing one way and are intolerant of other differing styles of play. If you have some advice for the original question, other than don't be a metagamer, then give it. Otherwise get off the thread and plague a different one.



#60 mouthymerc

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 09:11 AM

Advice has been given by many people, including myself way back in the beginning. Ultimately what it boils down to is that as a group you should decide this stuff on your own. A majority of gamers are not jerks and it really shouldn't be an issue to do so. Whether you are giving out shares or have a communal pot or whatever floats your fancy, there are many forms it can take and will vary with each group. No two groups are going to be the same, so there is no way to have rules on this.


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