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Which came first: The APL or the Shield?


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#1 That One Guy

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 11:59 PM

Today in a match, someone flying Luke with R2D2 collided with my shuttle and took ATP damage. The ship was, prior to the collision, unhurt. He insisted that the ATP damage happened first, and that his green maneuver took care of the damage, and I obviously said it went the other way. We rolled, and I got 2 focuses against his zero, so my ruling stood. We may have checked the book but it was an organized play so we didn't want to waste time. Who was right? Both effects say they resolve "after executing a maneuver".



#2 Eltnot

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 12:05 AM

 

Q: If a player has multiple effects that resolve 

at the same time, can he resolve them in 
any order?
A: Yes.

That's taken from the FaQ, so I would say that the player moving their ship may determine the order of the events.


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#3 DraconPyrothayan

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 12:16 AM

 

 

Q: If a player has multiple effects that resolve 

at the same time, can he resolve them in 
any order?
A: Yes.

That's taken from the FaQ, so I would say that the player moving their ship may determine the order of the events.

Technically, R2-D2's Luke only gets to resolve 1 of the effects.
The ship with Anti-Pursuit Lasers is the one that gets to resolve the attack die situation, so this particular FaQ ruling doesn't apply.

 

I always rule that the nasty thing always happens after the good thing, so R2-D2 would regenerate a shield, then the APL hits.



#4 Buhallin

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 12:21 AM

One of the more often-overlooked rules of the game.  Bottom of page 16: If multiple abilities resolve at the same time, the player with initiative resolves his abilities first.

 

The "player chooses" rule only applies if both effects are owned by the same player.  If the effects are owned by different players, use the above and go by initiative.


Edited by Buhallin, 11 February 2014 - 12:21 AM.

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#5 That One Guy

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 12:24 AM

Well, in this case he had initiative, so Luke should have gone first.



#6 Eltnot

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 12:36 AM

Awesome rules discussion!


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#7 Khyros

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 06:47 AM

Well, there are two statements in the FAQ about R2-D2 and taking damage:

 

Q: If a ship equipped with R2-D2 executes a 
green maneuver and moves through or 
overlaps an obstacle, does it recover a 
shield before rolling for damage?
A: Yes.
Q: If a ship equipped with R2-D2 executes 
a green maneuver and moves through a 
proximity mine token, does it recover a 
shield before rolling for damage?
A: No
 
The answer, as you can see, is different.  So that means that no matter how much we discuss, we won't be able to prove 100% either way.  But what I will say is that the obstacle is a self inflicted damage, and the prox (at least can be) is from your opponent.  As such, I'd be more willing to say that it does not regenerate shields before APL.  This can be a good or bad thing - if he's a full health, you would want to regen afterwards, but if he only has 1 hull, you would want to regen before.  Again, trying to use the FAQ as a guideline, I would say he  regens AFTER APL.

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#8 Ravncat

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 07:00 AM

Difference is that the Obstacle and Proximity mine are not really player vs player triggers - the obstacle and to a lesser extend prox mine, are game state effects by that point. (The proximity mine doesn't care who dropped it, it will trigger on any ship flying through, so it's not really enemy controlled)

R2D2 and APL both trigger after completing a maneuver - so Buhallin's got it right, in that the player with the initiative resolves his effects and then the other player resolves his effects.


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#9 Jehan Menasis

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 07:09 AM

Which proves again that having initiative in the movement phase sucks...



#10 pgarfunkle

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 08:32 AM

Which proves again that having initiative in the movement phase sucks...

This is really situational surely, in the OP case Luke would have wanted to take the damage and then repair the shield but if he was flying around with no shields then he would rather repair a shield and then take the hit to avoid the hull damage


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#11 That One Guy

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 08:34 AM

@Kyros I'd be much less inclined to use those rulings because in that example, the damaging effect is not the result of another player's ships or cards, but a static obstacle. You'll notice specifically that the text in that FAQ says "may", as in it gives the player the choice to do so before or after. So if it were advantageous for that example player to regenerate his shield after striking the obstacle, he may do so.

 

Also Buhallin found a line of rules text that perfectly addresses the situation.



#12 KineticOperator

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 08:51 AM

Proximity mine triggers when you overlap it or cross it, not after.  

Proximity_Mines.png

 

R2D2 is applied after completing the maneuver.

 

R2-d2.png

 

Damage from obstacles is applied after the "perform action step".

 

When a ship executes a maneuver in which either 
the maneuver template or the ship’s base physically 
overlaps an obstacle token, follow these steps:
1. Execute the maneuver as normal, but skip the 
“Perform Action” step.
2. The player rolls one attack die. The ship then 
suffers any damage or critical damage rolled 
(see “Suffering Damage” on page 16).

 

 

The rulings with R2D2, Proximity Mines, and overlapping obstacles are completely consistent, too many people rail against FFG's rulings for being arbitrary when they are nothing of the sort.  Prox Mines act when you do the maneuver.  R2D2 acts immediately after doing the maneuver.  Obstacle Damage occurs after the "perform action" step is skipped.

 

Anti Pursuit Lasers occur in the same time frame as R2D2, so as others have pointed out the two of them resolve in initiative order.

 

Anti-pursuit-lasers.png

 

As for whether it is an advantage to have initiative in this situation, I suppose it depends on whether Luke is on his last hull or his first shield.  If the former, I would absolutely love to have my APL destroy him before his shield comes back.


Edited by KineticOperator, 11 February 2014 - 08:55 AM.

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#13 Stone37

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 09:16 AM

Proximity mine triggers when you overlap it or cross it, not after.  

Proximity_Mines.png

 

R2D2 is applied after completing the maneuver.

 

R2-d2.png

 

Damage from obstacles is applied after the "perform action step".

 

When a ship executes a maneuver in which either 
the maneuver template or the ship’s base physically 
overlaps an obstacle token, follow these steps:
1. Execute the maneuver as normal, but skip the 
“Perform Action” step.
2. The player rolls one attack die. The ship then 
suffers any damage or critical damage rolled 
(see “Suffering Damage” on page 16).

 

 

The rulings with R2D2, Proximity Mines, and overlapping obstacles are completely consistent, too many people rail against FFG's rulings for being arbitrary when they are nothing of the sort.  Prox Mines act when you do the maneuver.  R2D2 acts immediately after doing the maneuver.  Obstacle Damage occurs after the "perform action" step is skipped.

 

Anti Pursuit Lasers occur in the same time frame as R2D2, so as others have pointed out the two of them resolve in initiative order.

 

Anti-pursuit-lasers.png

 

As for whether it is an advantage to have initiative in this situation, I suppose it depends on whether Luke is on his last hull or his first shield.  If the former, I would absolutely love to have my APL destroy him before his shield comes back.

Well done!  It seems that 99.9% of the rule disputes come from not following the proper turn order or not paying attention to the card text.  I think part of the problem is some words, like "action", have a slightly different meaning than in other games.  With new players, I often place a detailed turn order chart out on the playing table.  I solves most disputes quickly.


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#14 Khyros

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 09:34 AM

Good call.  I've never played with/against a prox mine, so I hadn't really studied the timing of it... It's much less arbitrary now that I read all of the cards at once.  I'm glad that you cleared both that up for me and the APL scenario.  


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#15 Eruletho

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 10:01 AM

 

 With new players, I often place a detailed turn order chart out on the playing table.  I solves most disputes quickly.

 

Any chance I can get a copy of that chart?


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#16 Stone37

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 10:05 PM

 

 

 With new players, I often place a detailed turn order chart out on the playing table.  I solves most disputes quickly.

 

Any chance I can get a copy of that chart?

 

Activation Phase

Note: Only one ship is 'active' at a time. The ship with the lowest skill will complete all of the steps before the next ship becomes 'active' (in case of a tie the player with Iniative goes first, if one player has multiple pilots with the same skill that player may choose the order to activate the ships

  • Beginning of Phase
  • Reveal Dial - Turn the dial of the active ship face up.
  • Set the Template - Take the template that corresponds to the face up dial and put it in place.
  • Execute the Maneuver - Hold the template in place, pick up the ship and move it to the end of the template. (Note: If the ship's base 'final position' will Overlap another ship's base the ship will be stopped prematurely. If the maneuver template Overlaps an obstacle the maneuver is executed, but the player will need to roll for damage.)
  • Check Pilot Stress - If the ship performed a red maneuver give it one Stress token. If it performed a green maneuver remove one Stress token.
  • Clean up - Remove the maneuver template and dial from the play area.
  • Perform Action - The ship may perform one action. (Note: Ships with Stress tokens may not perform any Actions. Ships that Overlapped another ship skip their Perform Action step, but may still take a Free Action, when appropriate.)

After the Active ship completes all of these steps the next ship in the order becomes the Active ship, and starts at the 'Reveal Dial' step.

 

Combat Phase

Similar to Activation, only one ship acts at a time; however in Combat the order goes from highest Pilot Skill to Lowest.

  • Beginning of Phase
  • Declare Target - The attacker chooses a target. An attack consists of firing a Primary weapon OR a Secondary weapon, not both.
  • Roll Attack Dice - The attacker rolls attack dice equal to the weapon's value (the Red number). For attacks made at Range 1 with a primary weapon, add one additional die.
  • Modify Attack Dice - Players may spend tokens and resolve abilities that modify attack dice.
  • Roll Defense Dice - The defender rolls defense dice equal to the ship's Agility (green number). For attacks made at Range 3 with a primary weapon, add 1 Defense die.
  • Modify Defense Dice -Players may spend tokens and resolve abilities that modify defense dice.
  • Compare Results - Compare the attack and defense dice to see if the defender was hit, and how much damage is dealt.
  • Deal Damage - The defender loses shield tokens / receives damage cards. 

Edited by Stone37, 12 February 2014 - 02:22 PM.

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#17 stegocent

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 04:28 AM

That's quite a handy chart. The only problem with it is it makes no mention that secondary weapons don't get an extra red die at range one and neither do defenders get an extra green die at range 3
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#18 Stone37

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 02:21 PM

That's quite a handy chart. The only problem with it is it makes no mention that secondary weapons don't get an extra red die at range one and neither do defenders get an extra green die at range 3

 

That is true.  It (should) be common knowledge that ONLY primary weapons receive the range bonus.  But we all know about assumptions don't we...  :D

 

I have now fixed this bit of language on my chart.  Thanks for pointing that out!


Edited by Stone37, 12 February 2014 - 02:23 PM.


#19 KILODEN

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 02:34 PM

 

That's quite a handy chart. The only problem with it is it makes no mention that secondary weapons don't get an extra red die at range one and neither do defenders get an extra green die at range 3

 

That is true.  It (should) be common knowledge that ONLY primary weapons receive the range bonus.  But we all know about assumptions don't we...  :D

 

I have now fixed this bit of language on my chart.  Thanks for pointing that out!

 

so does the falcon get the extra when firing outside its front fire arc for targets at range 1?


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#20 Khyros

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 03:19 PM

Yes.


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