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questions about lose icon and keyword Prized


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#1 snowfrost

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 10:57 PM

1,if Salty Dornishman has a mil icon(with Rusted Sword for example),then I kneel 1 influence to give him a mil icon with an enhancement.When Salty Dornishman lose a mil icon,does he still has the enhancement on the mil icon?
 
2,My opponent & I both reveal the plot "seizing the Prize"(when you claim power for the prized keyword,claim 1 addition power),I kill my character who has the keyword "Prized 2"(print keyword)+"Prized 1"(because of the new agenda "Conquest" for example),then I play "Infamous!"(Response: After a player claims 1 or more power for his or her House, move that power to a [Lannister] character. ) how many power can I claim?
 
thanks


#2 Khudzlin

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 12:35 AM

  1. Yes. The enhancement is not tied to a specific instance of the icon, so the enhancement stays as long as the icon is there.
  2. No idea whether multiple instances of Prized combine or not. Better send that one to FFG.


#3 ktom

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 01:36 AM

2. Unless you decide to do something weird, you'll take 2 power from your opponent with Infamous!, leaving a total of 3 other power to them.

 

Prized does not "stack." (We know this because if an "Immune to character abilities" card then gains "Immune to events" through card effects, it is not considered to have a single "Immune to events and character abilities" keyword, but rather two separate instances of the keyword, each with a different qualifier.) So, Conquest would not turn a printed "Prized 2" on a card into "Prized 3." Rather, you would have two separate effects, a printed "Prized 2" and a gained "Prized 1". Further, note that the wording of Seizing the Prize is more like Core-Robert ("When Robert Baratheon claims power for Renown, he claims an additional power") than it is like Motley Crewman ("Any effect that discards 1 or more cards from an opponent's deck discards an additional card"), so this plot is a passive effect (like Robert), not a continuous effect (like Motley Crewman). You get the extra power from the plot as the resolution of a separate passive effect, not as part of the resolution of the Prized keyword. All this means -- when the card you describes leaves play, your opponent gets 5 total power in 4 separate effects: 2 (Prized 2) + 1 (Prized 1) + 1 (StP for Prized 2) + 1 (StP for Prized 1) = 5.

 

That means you have 4 separate effects that create Response opportunities for Infamous!, Prized 2, Prized 1, and the two separate resolutions of the plot's passive effect. You can choose any one of those 4 separate response opportunities for Infamous!. I'd suggest the Prized 2 so you can maximize your stealing, but since they gained the power in 4 separate small effects, not 1 big one, you can't steal back more than 2 power in the scenario described.



#4 snowfrost

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 02:12 AM

thanks,my rule king



#5 -Istaril

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 07:30 AM

Given that we've only seen half the rules for Prized, that the cards are at least a month away, I'd say that Ktom's ruling is premature. Which is fine, given that the question is too...

 

It's consistant with how we handle other keywords, as he says, but I don't know if there's a precedent for numerical value definers (in the ccg?). I'm not sure how it'll interact with keyword gain/removal; would King Balon's Host removed Prized 1 or Prized, regardless of the qualifier? Would it remove one instance of each Prized 1, 2, 3, 4 etc?


Edited by -Istaril, 11 February 2014 - 07:31 AM.


#6 ktom

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 07:47 AM

The rules document for Prized has been spoiled. There is no precedent for numerical value modifiers on keywords because there has never been one before. As such, all the information we have now is all the information we will have when the cards actually hit the street. That information tells us to treat Prized the way we would treat any other qualified keyword.

So, how would you handle King Balon's Host against "No attachments except Boon and Weapon"? How do you handle Den if the Wolf against TRV? (Does he lose "immune to..." regardless of the qualifier? Does he lose one instance each of "immune to events" and "immune to character abilities," or is "immune to events and character abilities considered a single instance of immunity regardless of the fact that it combines two separate immunities that could appear independently - even on the same card? The fact that he does not lose EITHER "immune to events" OR "immune to character abilities" is a pretty good indication that Prized 2 vs. "loses all keywords" will not result in Prized 1, just as it is clear nothing will ever say "gains prized" -- without a number -- any more than you will ever see "gains immunity" without the qualifier.)

#7 -Istaril

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 12:24 PM

The rules document for Prized has been spoiled. There is no precedent for numerical value modifiers on keywords because there has never been one before. As such, all the information we have now is all the information we will have when the cards actually hit the street. That information tells us to treat Prized the way we would treat any other qualified keyword.

So, how would you handle King Balon's Host against "No attachments except Boon and Weapon"? How do you handle Den if the Wolf against TRV? (Does he lose "immune to..." regardless of the qualifier? Does he lose one instance each of "immune to events" and "immune to character abilities," or is "immune to events and character abilities considered a single instance of immunity regardless of the fact that it combines two separate immunities that could appear independently - even on the same card? The fact that he does not lose EITHER "immune to events" OR "immune to character abilities" is a pretty good indication that Prized 2 vs. "loses all keywords" will not result in Prized 1, just as it is clear nothing will ever say "gains prized" -- without a number -- any more than you will ever see "gains immunity" without the qualifier.)

 

The spoiler I've seen in the Q&TR#33 only included a short segment that may be lacking additional clarification. I could just as easily see "Prized 2" being a shorthand format of "Prized. Prized", and that each prized keyword is resolved independently (rather than a "qualified keyword"), or that each additional instance of Prized adds (or removes) one from the value but that they are all resolved as one effect (for purposes of "Infamous"). We just don't have a precedent for numerical qualifiers... and while there's no reason to assume any of the above is correct, it wouldn't stretch credulity that much.

 

This is certainly going to come up, because we know cards can gain prized by card effects (like Conquest), and obviously will interact with Keyword removal (aka Men of Pride).

 

Admittedly, all of this is just me being contrary: your assumptions all seem reasonable given what we know about qualified keywords and the recent FAQ updates referring to them - I just think assuming a numerical qualifier works exactly like other qualifiers is premature. No more than asking questions about prized scenarios before the cards have been released.


Edited by -Istaril, 11 February 2014 - 12:25 PM.


#8 Bomb

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 12:32 PM

Honestly, I hope all it adds/subtracts is +/-1, +/-2, etc to an existing Prized keyword.  It is so much flippin' easier to manage.  The other keywords do not have to deal with numbers, so hopefully it will be as simple as a little bit of math.



#9 -Istaril

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 12:43 PM

Honestly, I hope all it adds/subtracts is +/-1, +/-2, etc to an existing Prized keyword.  It is so much flippin' easier to manage.  The other keywords do not have to deal with numbers, so hopefully it will be as simple as a little bit of math.

Well, I'd rather Call of the three-eyed crow were banned rather than have 2 FAQ entries specific to it to fix it... but wishing doesn't make it so :(.



#10 ktom

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 12:57 PM

The spoiler I've seen in the Q&TR#33 only included a short segment that may be lacking additional clarification. I could just as easily see "Prized 2" being a shorthand format of "Prized. Prized", and that each prized keyword is resolved independently (rather than a "qualified keyword"), or that each additional instance of Prized adds (or removes) one from the value but that they are all resolved as one effect (for purposes of "Infamous"). We just don't have a precedent for numerical qualifiers... and while there's no reason to assume any of the above is correct, it wouldn't stretch credulity that much.

 

This is certainly going to come up, because we know cards can gain prized by card effects (like Conquest), and obviously will interact with Keyword removal (aka Men of Pride).

 

Admittedly, all of this is just me being contrary: your assumptions all seem reasonable given what we know about qualified keywords and the recent FAQ updates referring to them - I just think assuming a numerical qualifier works exactly like other qualifiers is premature. No more than asking questions about prized scenarios before the cards have been released.

 

 

Admittedly, all of my assumptions and conclusions on Prized should be understood as "pending other guidance, information, or ruling from FFG."

 

That said, it stretches my credulity quite a bit to think that "Prized 2" should be treated as two separate instances of "Prized 1" on the same card. Not only does the spoiled rules text seem complete (the size of the letters cut off by the frame under the "Prized" entry appear to indicate a new topic), but saying when it says "...each of that player's opponents claims X power for his or her House, where X is the value following the prized keyword on the card," it seems pretty clear that you claim power once for X=2, not two separate times of 1 power each.

 

And there could be a ruling that if a Prized 2 card gains Prized 1, it combines to Prized 3, but I highly doubt it. For one thing, what happens when a card with Prized 3 - consisting of a printed Prized 2 and a gained Prized 1 - is blanked? If the two are separate, it's easy (lose the printed, keep the gained), but if the combine into a single, hybrid printed-and-gained keyword, you are adding unnecessary complexity (not that AGoT is above that...).



#11 Bomb

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 02:27 PM

And there could be a ruling that if a Prized 2 card gains Prized 1, it combines to Prized 3, but I highly doubt it. For one thing, what happens when a card with Prized 3 - consisting of a printed Prized 2 and a gained Prized 1 - is blanked? If the two are separate, it's easy (lose the printed, keep the gained), but if the combine into a single, hybrid printed-and-gained keyword, you are adding unnecessary complexity (not that AGoT is above that...).

 

All we need is the Prized rule sheet or FAQ to tell us that we treat this keyword differently than other keywords by handling Gains/Loses of Prized X by applying a +/-X to the modifier.  It could easily be treated a lot like how we currently calculate STR a characters STR.  Anytime it would become Prized 0 it is considered non-existent for the purposes of checking for the keyword.

 

I understand that we want to treat keywords the same as consistently as possible, but because each keyword functions and is interacted with quite differently, and because this one has varying degrees of interaction(claim 1, 2, 3, 4+ power), I think it's entirely possible that they may allow Gains/Loses to interact with it by doing some simple math.

 

I hope it's treated similarly to the math behind calculating STR because that will be the most simple way to keep track of it.



#12 mdc273

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 04:36 PM

Doesn't that "claim an extra power" bit trigger as a passive after prize is claimed? So it's not Prized 2 + Prized 1, it's Prized 2 + Claim 1 power?



#13 -Istaril

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 04:55 PM

Yes - that's not being questioned. What we're wondering about is the stacking of prized keywords from, say the Conquest Agenda and an OOH prized character (and whether infamous would only work on one of the two, or the combined value of the two). 



#14 ktom

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 04:58 PM

In the example, there is a Prized 2 and a Prized 1 on the card (printed, plus agenda). They do not conflict, so they resolve at the same time when the card leaves play. Once they resolve, they each create a passive opportunity for the plot. Again, the two plot passives don't conflict, so they go at the same time. Still counts as 4 different effects, though (barring some bizarre ruling on the mechanics of Prized).

#15 ktom

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 05:00 PM

BTW, note that if Prized is "stacked" (will be shocked if it is, but you never know), the total claimed in the example is 4 over two effects instead of 5 over four effects.

Edited by ktom, 11 February 2014 - 05:01 PM.





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