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#61 bojan

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 05:53 AM

To illustrate, this is an autogun (AK, for those who want to say that today rifles are too advanced for 40k :P ) at short range:


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#62 Darth Smeg

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 06:04 AM

Static target, man! That had to be a BS +60 test at least :D

 

And that dude aimed for a full turn, and seemed to brace as well!

 

But nice vid :)


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#63 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 06:28 AM

Static, inanimate target = unaware target, at least in my book, so +30, +50 with the full action aim, an d it's short range, so + 10 for that and +60 total. ;) +30 in DH since DH doesn't go over that. :)



#64 Darth Smeg

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 06:56 AM

+30 in DH since DH doesn't go over that. :)

As per the Fine Errata, it does:

 

The maximum situational modifiers in combat should be +60/–60, instead of +30/–30 as described in the Combining Difficulties sidebar on page 197. 


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#65 Cogniczar

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 08:13 AM

Really nice video Bojan. I like seeing killy things shoot killy rounds. =D



#66 bojan

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 10:28 AM

Static target, man! That had to be a BS +60 test at least :D

And that dude aimed for a full turn, and seemed to brace as well!

That is not DH bracing, but just standard way you hold rifle properly. Firing from a hip is for (bad) movies.

Point of post was grouping and weapon control at full auto and a fact that at short range anything coming at full auto fire is deader then dead. :)

BTW, that group @ 15m will give you about 2x1.5m grouping @ 100m, which, considering average human can be represented by ~175x40cm rectangle will give you ~25% hits at 100m... Not really presentable in DH as accuaracy does not drop gradually but by range brackets but quite impresive...

 

In real combat most shots fired miss as small arms are (in ordinary infantry use) 99% of times used for suppression, killing someone with them is just a bonus. This is not really presentable in DH due the time issues, none wants for a firefight to last 20+ rounds.



#67 Lynata

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 12:00 PM

Firing from a hip is for (bad) movies.

 

And Codex art.  :P

 

46065804.jpg

 

That being said, this reminds me of GW's Inquisitor game, which did in fact assume you were hip-firing if you did not use the Aim action for its stacking +20 bonus:

 

"One aiming action shows the character raising his weapon to eye level before shooting (as opposed to firing from the hip).
Two aiming actions represents the character bringing his weapon up and then spending a couple of seconds aiming at the target.
Three or more aiming actions show that the character is tracking the target over quite a period of time (in combat conditions, even ten seconds is a long time!)."
 
I'm not exactly sure whether the standard attack in DH is meant to be "from the hip" as well or if the game just assumes that the character would raise their gun to eye-level automatically, but I feel there would be potential in exploring this mechanic a bit further. For example, if "hip-firing" were standard, you could have characters assume a stance where they advance with the gun raised to eye-level, in essence having the first Aim action prepared for immediate use, but simultaneously sacrificing a bit of Movement speed. Or characters with auto-senses and appropriately linked weapons would gain the first Aim bonus immediately even if they are hip-firing as they are essentially having the gun's camera projected into their helmet. Stuff like that.
 
Probably a bit off-topic, and I'm also a bit concerned this would lead to an inflation of BS bonuses, but it was fun pondering the possibilities for a moment.  ^_^

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#68 Alrik Vas

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 12:12 PM

I think it could be presumed that a +0 BS test is firing from the hip.  It would make some semblance of sense, anyway.


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#69 bojan

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 02:34 PM

Hip firing would only make sense if no character had any weapon training whatsoever, it is not done by anyone with even half clue, period*.

Considering round lasts 5 seconds, firing only single shot in 2.5 sec w/o any aiming is fantastically slow, slower then was expected from well trained WW1 infantryman with bolt-action rifle. Google "Mad Minute".

With semi-automatic gun and no need to manually operate rifle it would be practical aimed fire rate.

I am no way great shooter, but I fired M1 Carbine @ 50m at torso target, dumping whole 15 rounds mag, hitting 14/15 rounds in about 25-30 sec. That is ~1.5-2 sec/round.

Add laser weapons that have no recoil or negligible recoil and whole "shooting from hip" makes no sense at all.

Hip shooting would be -20 to hit at least, unless you have laser pointer/advanced targeting.

 

*There is a thing called "marching fire" in early 20th century where soldiers fired rifles from a hip as they marched deliberately toward objective**. Rifle was fired at the moment your left foot hit a ground. It was supposed to work due the:

- mass of fire (whole platoon firing at same time)

- being intended mainly as suppression fire (as is most small arms fire in military environment)

Needless to say it died out in harsh realities of WW1 (US insisted on it for a few years more, Browning BAR was supposed to be fired that way originally).

 

**DKOK, Mordian or Pretorian squad made that way would look kick-ass on tabletop. :)


Edited by bojan, 15 February 2014 - 02:39 PM.

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#70 Alrik Vas

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 02:57 PM

yeah, real life marksmaship doesn't have much to do with RPG combat.  It's all what kind of apporximations the developers make in how they try to balance it all.

 

Now, don't get me wrong, if people want to add as much realism as possible to their games, i think that's awesome (done it quite a bit myself), but the rules point toward thematic reasons.

 

They have a talent called Hip Shooting, but it's basically just an ability to make your full tactical move and snap off a single shot.  It's an awesome talent (especially if you rock a grenade launcher), but i think they nearly nailed it with a small paragraph in deathwatch where they say you can Semi or Full-Auto while doing a half move, but at -20 and -30 respectively.

 

Now, in Only War, you can half move and sill autofire, but at +0 or -10.  They're just moving the numbers around and making it work more elegantly, rather than realistically.  I think it works find in the current iteration.


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#71 Cymbel

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 03:06 PM

As others said, with a -10 of BC/OW/DH2e, full round aim +20, short range +10 (though getting closer to point blank) and a stationary target (treating as unaware) for +30 = +50 to an average BS of 30 let's say to keep it simple.

 

He rolled low and got a lot of rounds on target.

 

Now let's see it where the other guy is moving, using cover while our shooter is trying to do the same and then add in your own team and their team and everyone is firing off ammo and you try to keep yourself aware of your surroundings and co-ordinate with your team.



#72 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 04:32 PM

Just poiting out that if you do adopt the BC/OW rules in DH, it will have ripple effects all through the system. In particular, those modifiers were designed for a system in which all attacks are a half action (other than All-Out Attacks, which are +30 BTW for those who don't know, and Charge, which is +20). Meaning that they are meant to be often used in conjunstion with a Half-Action Aim.

 

It will also make standard ranged attacks more accurate than standard melee attacks, which will require you to shift over how swift and lightning attack work to maintain balance. Etc.

 

So it's really harder to do than at first appears.


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 15 February 2014 - 04:35 PM.

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#73 Cymbel

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 10:20 PM

Well, I never saw the issue of taking over the modifiers and half actions for melee and ranged. I assumed that would be taken over fully.

 

Otherwise for people who just want a more balanced full auto, I would include a half aim in the BC/OW modifiers and leave it as a full action (+10, +0).

 

That said, I love the greater flexibility the half action gives.


Edited by Cymbel, 16 February 2014 - 03:27 AM.

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#74 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 05:22 AM

You can; I'm just saying  you'll need to change how multiple attack works and how various talents work etc. etc. ayb e how pistols work in melee. A lot of stuff.



#75 Alrik Vas

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 08:57 AM

Pistols work different in melee for OW?  I must have missed that...



#76 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 09:04 AM

Pistols work different in melee for OW?  I must have missed that...

 

They can be fired semi or full auto in melee in BC and OW.

 

This is a no-go in DH since the autofire modifiers would make pistols superior to melee weapons in close combat.



#77 Cymbel

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 12:36 PM

*shrugs* I really don't see an issue with that, it never made sense realistically why you couldn't hope to spray close up as a last resort. Because of how overpowered full auto was, it did, but now at least more options are being opened up.

 

You just change the attacks to half actions, change swift and lightning to work like semi or full auto, let folks charge and swift attack, as well as full auto in melee. It seems pretty minimal...



#78 bojan

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 03:32 PM

My house rule is that you can fire all modes in CC, but w/o bonuses due not being able to aim properly.. Keeps it as useful, but is not alternative to proper CC weapons/specialists.

Then again, my campaigns are a bit thin on CC specialists as combats are scarce and most people prefer "thinking" characters, so combat skills are backup basically.

Combat when it comes will often come in form of ambushes where opponents use suppression fire and grenades and that does not leave much space for CC.



#79 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 05:08 PM

*shrugs* I really don't see an issue with that, it never made sense realistically why you couldn't hope to spray close up as a last resort. Because of how overpowered full auto was, it did, but now at least more options are being opened up.

 

You just change the attacks to half actions, change swift and lightning to work like semi or full auto, let folks charge and swift attack, as well as full auto in melee. It seems pretty minimal...

 

Because it won't be last resort. It will be standard. It makes melee weapons pointless. BTW I am not OBJECTING to the change at all, just pointing out that it becomes possible only once the rules changes are made.

 

A stub auto becomes much better in close combat than a sword, to the point where there is no point in having swords (other than ammo issues).


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 17 February 2014 - 05:12 PM.


#80 Magnus Grendel

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 02:54 AM

It will also make standard ranged attacks more accurate than standard melee attacks...

 

How come?

 

 

A stub auto becomes much better in close combat than a sword, to the point where there is no point in having swords (other than ammo issues).

 

Well...in the specific case of swords there is a point; balanced is a very useful defensive trait.

Which I guess helps support the classic 40k melee armament of sword-and-pistol.


Edited by Magnus Grendel, 18 February 2014 - 02:57 AM.





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