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#41 borithan

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 09:15 AM

One thing to remember: the skill, in Dark Heresy at least, is "Silent Move", not "sneak". This is not some generic "hide in plain sight" skill, that gets bonuses if you have concealment. It is the ability to move without generating too much sound. If the enemy is looking in your direction and there is no cover or concealment you do not get to use the skill. As people have said, reliably getting to within 3 metres of someone is unlikely, unless in perfect circumstances (heavy cover to get close by behind the guy, and then hope he doesn't turn round while sneaking the last stretch... oh, and none of his mates do either). Close environments present more cover, but also limit approaches more. Someone properly wanting to protect something is going to make sure the approaches are limited, so they can be easily covered, or that there is a lot of empty ground to cover.

 

Also, remember DH doesn't have many hard and fast rules vis-a-vis modifiers, combat exceptions aside. Armour and lots of gear doesn't give an automatic penalty to Silent Move, for example, but probably should do in most circumstances. Bits of gear bang into each other, you have less flexibility etc. This is entirely within the purview of the GM.

 

As another note, as it is "Silent Move", just because you fail does not mean the enemy realise you are sneaking to attack them. If they cannot see you (because you are behind a wall, for example) they will just hear something. This will likely put them on alert, or they might investigate the sound, but only if they have some reason (or they have caught the sneak-er in an exposed position, such as sneaking from position to position, or they have turned round and found him behind them) will they necessarily instantly presume they are under attack.

 

I would say one way to help regarding full-auto: change it to the pre-errata status of it being a hit for every 2 DoS like Semi-Auto. Apparently this was a mistake in the original printing by Black industries, but it would certainly help with the sheer number of hits, and further emphasise the waste of ammo.


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#42 Braddoc

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 09:46 AM

With a hit every two Dos for full auto, that would only fall down to a waste of bullets Or maybe an extra hit over the Semi-auto; really, with a two DoS/hit rule, full auto will be for nothing and semi-auto will be used all the time as you get the same results for less ammo wasted



#43 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 09:55 AM

Why is semi auto being used all the time worse than full auto being used all the time?



#44 Braddoc

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 10:06 AM

I was referring to Borithan's last paragraph about how it would be better to go with a hit every 2 DoS with full auto.



#45 borithan

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 10:27 AM

But there is still a reason to use full-auto: The additional +10 to hit. However, there is now a reason to use semi-auto: to waste less ammo.

 

One of the major problems at the moment is that there is almost no reason to use semi-auto, except if your gun hasn't got full-auto. It gives you +10, less than full-auto, and while this is better than single shot you can just get a laser dot sight and suddenly you are no better off.



#46 Lynata

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 12:03 PM

However, there is now a reason to use semi-auto: to waste less ammo.

 

But ... that's a drawback that Autofire has in every incarnation of the rules, being a cornerstone of the basic idea.

 

Yeah, if you only count every 2nd DoS (additional mathematical complexity, however small), you may have, say, only three bullets hit instead of five (assuming a roll of 50 at WS 50, +50 from Full Auto and Point Blank), but in the case of the autogun you're still going to waste 5 rounds even by RaW, compared to 0 if you had used a Semi-Auto Burst.

 

The drawback of Full Auto only really gets negated by those few Autofire weapons that do not have a high rate of fire - because the rule grants them the exact same bonus, thus making them notably more efficient (with the downside of perhaps not exhausting the full potential of your dice if you roll really well for once). That's pretty much the only flaw I see there, hence my houserule idea on making the bonus depend on how many shots you fire.

 

... coincidentally, how high are your players rolling all the time that this is such a big problem? Y'all make me feel as if I should requisition new dice.  :huh:


Edited by Lynata, 13 February 2014 - 12:06 PM.

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#47 Alrik Vas

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 09:08 PM

Some people got it, Lynata.  I know a guy who just kills it, every time, no matter what dice he's using.  it's terrifying.


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#48 Cymbel

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 12:38 AM

I know a guy who passes every -60 test with a nat 1 and the dice roller in roll20 HATES players.

 

Back to full auto, it boils down to. Change the "to hit" or change the "Hit per DoS"

 

Changing the DoS (1 DoS to Semi Auto, 2 DoS to Full Auto) is one way. The semi auto hits more, but you need better placement to begin with. Full auto recoil makes it harder to hit a target, but the more rounds in the air helps (to hit).

 

The reverse solution is what they went with in BC. And I can see why, however if your group likes one better, roll with it.

 

The real issue is that DH 1e full auto is broken. It has ONE drawback, which is ammo expenditure. That's it. It makes you more likely to hit them and more likely to hit them a LOT. In balance terms (which while IRL is important, balance is too), it sucks. It is awful, it makes any weapon without full auto, not as good.


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#49 borithan

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 08:02 AM

 

But ... that's a drawback that Autofire has in every incarnation of the rules, being a cornerstone of the basic idea.

 

Yeah, if you only count every 2nd DoS (additional mathematical complexity, however small), you may have, say, only three bullets hit instead of five (assuming a roll of 50 at WS 50, +50 from Full Auto and Point Blank), but in the case of the autogun you're still going to waste 5 rounds even by RaW, compared to 0 if you had used a Semi-Auto Burst.

 

The drawback of Full Auto only really gets negated by those few Autofire weapons that do not have a high rate of fire - because the rule grants them the exact same bonus, thus making them notably more efficient (with the downside of perhaps not exhausting the full potential of your dice if you roll really well for once). That's pretty much the only flaw I see there, hence my houserule idea on making the bonus depend on how many shots you fire.

 

... coincidentally, how high are your players rolling all the time that this is such a big problem? Y'all make me feel as if I should requisition new dice.  :huh:

 

True. I guess I am more used to seeing Deathwatch and Rogue Trader (where many of the weapons have that more efficient full auto you mentioned, and pre the errata in Deathwatch it seemed to be everyone got the full 4 hits with their Bolter every time) in play than DH, and those few DH sessions I have played never lasted long enough for the ammo expenditure to be that much of an issue. Combats were over before the guns ran dry and the campaigns didn't last long enough for the additional cost really to be an issue.



#50 Lynata

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 09:20 AM

Yeah... It's kind of sad the errata had to take it away - I feel the bolter deserves Full Auto.

 

My idea was to have each bullet in a salvo add +2 to the BS roll, which for the boltgun would have meant a +8 bonus.

In essence, you'd trade 1 bullet for a 2% increased chance to hit your target at least once, with the bonus of additional hits if you roll really well (1 per DoS).

 

Some weapons, such as the heavy bolter or heavy stubber, might even have a lower FA bonus such as +1 (for a total of +10 in a 10-round full auto salvo), representing their nature as a less easily controllable support weapon. This could be applied to Autoguns with a very high RoF as well if you feel it is necessary.

 

This idea would extend to Semi-Auto Bursts, too, by the way, in essence "unifying" both actions into two firing methods using the very same mechanic, differentiated only by the number of bullets you'd want to "risk".


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#51 bojan

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 10:49 AM

Most simple solution and quite realistic* as a bonus:

semi - +10, additional hit per DoS

full - +20, additional hit per DoS

Max number of hits is equal to BS bonus on both semi and full auto.

 

So BS 30something character will hit max 3 times making full auto, especially on guns that throw 10 rounds in one burst iffy proposition. This also indirectly boosts semi - is 3 times expenditure of ammo worth additional +10 to hit?

 

*youtube it, there are people firing 30 rounds mags in one burst @ 100m with all rounds hitting torso-sized target. So if you are good you will benefit from it.


Edited by bojan, 14 February 2014 - 10:49 AM.

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#52 bojan

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 10:51 AM

...

Some weapons, such as the heavy bolter or heavy stubber, might even have a lower FA bonus such as +1 (for a total of +10 in a 10-round full auto salvo), representing their nature as a less easily controllable support weapon. This could be applied to Autoguns with a very high RoF as well if you feel it is necessary.

...

 

Machineguns are actually more controlable then rifles on full auto due the their heavy weight. PMK has less felt recoil then AK on full auto due the being 3x heavier, even if it fires more powerful ammo.



#53 Lynata

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 11:21 AM

Machineguns are actually more controlable then rifles on full auto due the their heavy weight. PMK has less felt recoil then AK on full auto due the being 3x heavier, even if it fires more powerful ammo.

 

Good point. I often make a similar argument every time I see someone argue about bolt weapons supposedly ripping someone's arm off with recoil.  :rolleyes:

 

Apologies for the brainfart.

 

That said, one could probably still make an argument about a soldier not being able to maintain accurate aim when they're unloading a rapid fire weapon as a result of multiple factors whose effects stack with each shot fired, from barrel climb (however minimal) to the sheer psychological stress/distraction (sound?), hence it potentially also applying to smaller guns?

 

Max number of hits is equal to BS bonus on both semi and full auto.

 

Very clever. :)


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#54 Alrik Vas

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 11:39 AM

The issue with autofire is wonky though.  Honestly doing a full burst doesn't make you more "accurate" it makes you more likely to kill by happerstance.  Autofire should absolutely be the -10 it is.  The only way to improve it would be to let you have another -10 to double the rate the fire.


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#55 Lynata

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 12:14 PM

Honestly doing a full burst doesn't make you more "accurate" it makes you more likely to kill by happerstance. 

 

I thought that is exactly what the bonus represents, i. e. the mechanic doing its job. I still don't see what's wrong with this.

 

The first bullet is shot under the exact same circumstances and with the exact same chance to hit as if it were fired via Single Shot. The bonus represents all the other rounds having a small chance to either hit as well, or hit when the first bullet did not.

 

Autofire should absolutely be the -10 it is.

 

What's the reasoning behind even the very first bullet out of the barrel having a decreased chance to hit compared to Single Shot?

 

I'm sorry, but in these discussions I just always have to imagine two characters with autorifles standing next to each other, aiming at an enemy 10 meters in front of them.

One of them rolls for a Single Shot attack and hits. The other rolls for Full Auto and gets the same result, but now we see him unloading 1/3 of their entire magazine, not scoring a single hit.

 

My suspension of disbelief goes only so far.  :P


Edited by Lynata, 14 February 2014 - 12:16 PM.

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#56 bojan

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 01:07 PM

...That said, one could probably still make an argument about a soldier not being able to maintain accurate aim when they're unloading a rapid fire weapon as a result of multiple factors whose effects stack with each shot fired, from barrel climb (however minimal) to the sheer psychological stress/distraction (sound?), hence it potentially also applying to smaller guns?

 

Psychological issues are a thing for training, anyone with appropriate weapon training trait in DH could be considered professional enough not to flinch due the "fear factor".

As for shoulder firing MGs bigger problem is holding the damn thing due the weight then controlling it. Set on bipod/tripod however MGs are almost sniper-rifle accurate, you can easily make shots on people up the your tracer burn-out range quite effectively if you know a range - ranging errors will easily make you miss.

 

Firing 3-round bursts (which, unless your rifle really has 3-round burst ability is usually 2-5 rounds) increases chance to hit significantly compared to single shots as muzzle climb eliminates range estimation errors. Simply, you aim about upper legs/groin and fire short burst. At 100m provided your control of weapon is good (and no, you don't need any exceptional strength for this) least 3-4 rounds will hit target, one where you aimed, one lower torso/upper stomach, one upper torso/neck, one to head.

If you aimed lower then appropriate (or you underestimated range to target) first 1-2 rounds will hit ground, but next 2-3 stll have a decent chance to hit target.

If you aimed too high (or overestimated range to target), there is still chance it is low enough to hit neck/head area.

So semi-auto burst should give bonus to hit greater then single shot. 

Also, semi-auto representsmultiple fast shots (round is 5 sec, anyone with minimum training will fire 2-3 shots in 5 sec and hit 100m target).

 

Full-auto firing* is same, you waste more ammo, but if you know to control weapon (jerking it slightly down every time 2-3 rounds are fired and using sling to stabilize your rifle) you can effectively increase your hit ratio with a price of high ammo expenditure. Full auto is not "hip shooting" as in crappy movies**.

So full auto should give slightly better chance to hit to everyone, compared to single and semi, but only higher trained people should hit with more bullets then with semi.

 

Hence my "max number of hits = BS bonus" rule as easiest and probably most realistic solution***.

 

 

 

*My main problem with DH is that full auto rates are most often way too high, none fires 10 rounds burst from rifles unless **** really hit a fan.

 

**For effective use of both single shot and full auto fire see "Heat" (one with DeNiro and Pacino). That is your tipical DH firefight.

 

***At least way, way, more realistic then BC flat -10 to hit bull.

 

PS. And having  -10 for few rare full auto Las weapons is so utterly stupid that I will not even comment it anymore. :)


Edited by bojan, 14 February 2014 - 01:21 PM.

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#57 Alrik Vas

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 04:04 PM

 

Honestly doing a full burst doesn't make you more "accurate" it makes you more likely to kill by happerstance. 

 

I thought that is exactly what the bonus represents, i. e. the mechanic doing its job. I still don't see what's wrong with this.

 

The first bullet is shot under the exact same circumstances and with the exact same chance to hit as if it were fired via Single Shot. The bonus represents all the other rounds having a small chance to either hit as well, or hit when the first bullet did not.

 

Autofire should absolutely be the -10 it is.

 

What's the reasoning behind even the very first bullet out of the barrel having a decreased chance to hit compared to Single Shot?

 

I'm sorry, but in these discussions I just always have to imagine two characters with autorifles standing next to each other, aiming at an enemy 10 meters in front of them.

One of them rolls for a Single Shot attack and hits. The other rolls for Full Auto and gets the same result, but now we see him unloading 1/3 of their entire magazine, not scoring a single hit.

 

My suspension of disbelief goes only so far.  :P

 

I can understand your reasoning.  Even though the first shot is as accurate as a single shot would be from a technical standpoint, the truth is pretty different.  There comes a point where training and experience comes together and puts that first shot on the bullseye everytime, but doing that is easier than putting 5 our of ten rounds into the same grouping vs a moving target.

 

Regardless of either of our points, the RPG does things this way for balance purposes.


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#58 Lynata

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 05:09 PM

There comes a point where training and experience comes together and puts that first shot on the bullseye everytime, but doing that is easier than putting 5 our of ten rounds into the same grouping vs a moving target.

 

... which is represented by the following 4 rounds requiring 4 Degrees of Success in addition to the general success of the attack.

 

Including the +20 bonus provided by Full Auto, the rulebook would call this a "Hard Test".

 

Regardless of either of our points, the RPG does things this way for balance purposes.

 

Certainly. I guess I just don't see it as "imbalanced" as others - or, if it were, I would rather prefer a solution like the idea bojan suggested. No idea to needlessly sacrifice realism where it can be averted. ;)


Edited by Lynata, 14 February 2014 - 05:10 PM.

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previous characters: Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader frigate Artemisia)

#59 Alrik Vas

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 07:11 PM

Maybe we shouldn't have been arguing then.  I don't see it as imbalanced either.

 

Let me put it this way, though.

 

Throwing a full six or so seconds of ammunition into one target will likely net you some accuracy if you can remain steady (+20 to BS as given in DH).

 

Bursting with the intent to hit multiple targets, as in walking fire from one target to another, is far less accurate (-10 in OW, though in DH this is still +20, even though it's more difficult)

 

Though showering a whole area with the intent of making a bunch of goons duck their heads or become a hypertension fountain spray is the least accurate (-20 in both games for suppressive fire).

 

If these were the actual differences (+20 for single target, -10 for multiple, -20 for suppressive fire) it would be cool, though it wouldn't do anything for the OP's situation, admittedly. <_<


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#60 ColArana

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 09:24 PM

Maybe we shouldn't have been arguing then.  I don't see it as imbalanced either.

 

Let me put it this way, though.

 

Throwing a full six or so seconds of ammunition into one target will likely net you some accuracy if you can remain steady (+20 to BS as given in DH).

 

Bursting with the intent to hit multiple targets, as in walking fire from one target to another, is far less accurate (-10 in OW, though in DH this is still +20, even though it's more difficult)

 

Though showering a whole area with the intent of making a bunch of goons duck their heads or become a hypertension fountain spray is the least accurate (-20 in both games for suppressive fire).

 

If these were the actual differences (+20 for single target, -10 for multiple, -20 for suppressive fire) it would be cool, though it wouldn't do anything for the OP's situation, admittedly. <_<

 

I sent some of the easier suggestions to our GM. As soon as our character's have a chance to rest up, I am fairly certain he's gonna be throwing hordes of enemies at us in the future.


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