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#21 Amaimon

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 04:35 AM

So youre a psyker and an assassin is stealing your show.

 

Let me give you a piece of advice. Remember that fortification with heavy stubber, and the whole enemy outpost?

 

Stand in the corner. Cast Psychic Scream 3 times. Take your time, use invocation between casts. Go out, and mutilate the bodies.



#22 ColArana

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 05:00 AM

So youre a psyker and an assassin is stealing your show.

 

Let me give you a piece of advice. Remember that fortification with heavy stubber, and the whole enemy outpost?

 

Stand in the corner. Cast Psychic Scream 3 times. Take your time, use invocation between casts. Go out, and mutilate the bodies.

 

The outpost itself was 100 meters away from us, so substantially over the range of Psychic Shriek. Not that it mattered really, at the time my Psyker was a rank 3, so didn't have access to Telepathy at the time. And still doesn't as he's only gotten his first Biomancy power (Bio-Lightning) as of last session. Which actually ended up being quite useful in the combat I mentioned earlier, up until I rolled a Perils of the Warp and got mind trapped.



#23 segara82

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 06:16 AM

Wait, i thought suprise ment that you could act while he simply could not, but afterwards they would. How shall i put it ...
After successfully sneaking behind the guards your Assassin fires his gun full-auto at the first guard. Since they have failed their Awareness Tests they count as suprised and can do nothing this turn. Number one gets turned into bloody chunks.
At the start of the second turn normal Initiative says who goes first. If your Assassin has the higher one she gets to shoot the second guard at point blank. If he has the higher he can simply get into close combat and (try to) gut her.
You don't get a free attack and stun your enemies for a second round.

Cudos in succeeding at that Deceive Test, while troubling for a GM it is good thinking on the Players part and should still get rewarded.
But the shooting into melee? I hope she never rolls into those 20% penalty or she hits her friends. And yes, even those can cause RF.

Edited by segara82, 11 February 2014 - 06:17 AM.

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#24 Magnus Grendel

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 09:35 AM

I don't think the latter example you gave is too big a deal - as you note yourself, firstly the combat must have started within...what? Less than ten metres of one another? - and as you say, if the guardsmen hadn't charged then things would have gotten messy (they're lucky the rebel leader didn't react faster than them). And "elite" or not, if the GM is being nice and restrained - some body armour, 5-10 point improvement in stats and some mid-tech weapons - you're still not at "immune to bullets" level, so a point blank full auto burst still has a decent chance of killing.

 

A BS45 (ish) character firing an autogun at point blank can expect about 4 hits.

 

Autogun is D10+3 damage, increased to D10+5 (effectively) by Mighty Shot. Targets are...err...call it 3 points of toughness and a point of armour (gang leathers or something), so it's effectively D10+1 damage. Throw in the statistics-distorting effect of righteous fury and you get an average of about 7 wounds per hit - which means two hits will kill most generic mooks (even if they have a couple of extra wounds).

 

The thing is, both of those examples involve letting you get to point blank range. The counter-argument to the second one is making the assassin drop her gun, with weapons levelled. The Deceive test is a nice idea, but must have been reasonably risky (unless she's got significantly increased deceive and silent move and concealment and dodge and all the shooting talents).

 

Equally, as previously mentioned, these are not significant numbers of opponents. Look in most of the missions I've seen and the opponents are something like "one-to-two per acolyte" when you want to give them a challenging fight. In both of these cases you were outnumbering the opposition - which generally means that the acolyte who acts first (i.e. assassins) will steal the show.



#25 Angel of Death

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 12:50 PM

Playing a Moritat, I'm impressed that your Assassin has been able to sneak into pointblank range that often.

 

On the other he has killed messy in the Emperor's name, mostly because well, who do you shot 1st the nut job with the 2 blades or 3+ other people with Ranged Weapons.

 

But the simple answer to to put in at pointblank range with a good melee specialist

Swift Attack, Quick Draw, Lightning Reflex, and Rapid Reaction.  

and the other thing is letting him find out about the horrible thing called Combat Shotgun at pointblank with someone with Rapid Reaction.


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#26 segara82

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 01:11 PM

Faint, Rapid Reaction, Sure Strike, Take Down and a Shock Maul ... usually hits you on the least protected body part and stuns you.


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#27 Darth Smeg

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 02:35 PM

Faint...

 

I hate it when they do that  :rolleyes:


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#28 ColArana

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 03:06 PM

Equally, as previously mentioned, these are not significant numbers of opponents. Look in most of the missions I've seen and the opponents are something like "one-to-two per acolyte" when you want to give them a challenging fight. In both of these cases you were outnumbering the opposition - which generally means that the acolyte who acts first (i.e. assassins) will steal the show.

 

True enough, our GM seems to prefer throwing average to tough guys at us on average. He did throw one horde encounter at us in the past (the assassin took down their boss and spent the rest of the combat waving his decapitated head around trying to scare the others off). Though part of this is that our characters tend to try and even the scales when we can. Especially in this particular mission where our GM has stressed picking our fights carefully (as we're inside an enemy stronghold. Pick the wrong fight and it won't just be a dozen rebels we fight, it'll be a hundred.)



#29 segara82

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 01:08 AM

Sorry, i ment Feint to negate his dodge/parry, then club him in a soft spot with a stun weapon. Should stun him long enough to really get the drop on him.

Edit: Fainting and playing 'possum should work too.

Edited by segara82, 12 February 2014 - 01:09 AM.

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#30 Magnus Grendel

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 02:10 AM

 

Faint...

 

I hate it when they do that  :rolleyes:

 

 

Happens quite often in Dark Heresy with early level characters. The group of acolytes I GM for, at the end of the last mission, kicked in a door and charged through, weapons snapping out in each direction 'Charlies Angels' fashion with a triumphant "Ha-ha!"...

 

aside from one of them, who charged through, struck a pose, got a good look at the Slaught on the other side of the door (minus person suit for the first time) and fainted unconcious for the rest of the battle.

 

The guardsman leading the team looks back at her, turns to face the Slaught and shrugs.

"Sorry. She's new."

 

 

 

 

True enough, our GM seems to prefer throwing average to tough guys at us on average. He did throw one horde encounter at us in the past (the assassin took down their boss and spent the rest of the combat waving his decapitated head around trying to scare the others off). Though part of this is that our characters tend to try and even the scales when we can. Especially in this particular mission where our GM has stressed picking our fights carefully (as we're inside an enemy stronghold. Pick the wrong fight and it won't just be a dozen rebels we fight, it'll be a hundred.)

 

 

As well you should. Dark Heresy isn't really a combat RPG in the way Deathwatch or Only War is. But what I mean is that there is a significant difference between three opponents and five; because (most of the time) the acolytes will go first and will either kill, pin, trap in melee or otherwise suppress the opponent they choose to engage, a significant measure of the challenge in an encounter is the number of opponents there are in excess of the acolytes. It doesn't have to be many to significantly change the dynamic of the game:

 

1 excess opponent garuantees one person gets a shot.

2 excess opponents more or less garuantees one acolyte takes at least one accurate shot

3 excess opponents more or less garuantees one acolyte takes a hit - since he can only dodge one opponent

 

etc, etc.


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#31 Alrik Vas

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 12:13 PM

Man, you're assassin is doing it the hard way.  Why sneak up when they can't dodge from surprise and you get +50 from auto-fire and an unaware target anyway?  I'd stay back and kill all three guys with one full auto burst if they're all within two meters of each other.  Especially with Crack and Mighty Shot talents.



#32 segara82

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 01:47 PM

The only way to hit several opponents is with suppressive fire and it's -20 modifier.Even at point blank and unaware you need to roll rather well to get enough hits.


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#33 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 02:07 PM

The only way to hit several opponents is with suppressive fire and it's -20 modifier.Even at point blank and unaware you need to roll rather well to get enough hits.

 

You can allocate extra hits among multiple targets.



#34 Lynata

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 02:29 PM

Somehow I have a feeling that the GM has not exhausted nearly half the options possible to curb such behaviour. As has been pointed out, the act of simply getting into Point Blank range is and should be a feat all by itself. Sure, when combat has not yet started and you can surprise the enemy, then getting close might not be that difficult. That's kind of the point of being an Assassin. However, this only accounts for one kill, and if there were multiple enemies, the Assassin is now dangerously close to them.

 

Some more advice off the top of my head:

 

Enforce ammo and gear weight restrictions. Several hundred bullets are going to weigh "a bit" and, in addition to possibly being a cause for Encumbrance, may well negatively affect Sneak rolls. Magnus Grendel already mentioned this but it deserves to be said twice.

 

Keep in mind that ammo =/= ammo. There's no reason not to give enemy NPCs auto weapons as well, even if the Assassin will try to loot their ammo. This isn't the army, which means a cultist's or a ganger's armaments will be heavily personalised. Ultimately, your Assassin will have a hard time trying to fit the 9x40 mm slugs of Johnny Cawdor's customised AX-22 Imperator Longrifle or the caseless 6x35mm rounds of Lady Z's prized Ebony PL-10 into the magazine of their Alcher Mark II Justicar Autorifle that only takes 8x50mm. This is "a galaxy of guns", and projectile ammunition being non-standardised is one of the lasgun's most important advantages.

Otherwise, next thing you know it your Assassin may well start trying to force pistol or revolver rounds into their gun. :P

 

And for the record, I don't approve of the newer games' changes to the Autofire rules - the idea that even the very first bullet out of the barrel has a 10% reduced chance compared to a single shot just doesn't sit well with my sense of realism. The argument against autofire should not be a reduced chance to hit anything, but a reduced chance to have all bullets of your salvo hit compared to firing them individually, thus leading to ammo waste and requiring a higher use of the Reload action. DH's standard rules achieve this well enough (though I have an entirely different idea for alternative approaches .. but that's probably for another thread).


Edited by Lynata, 12 February 2014 - 02:30 PM.

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#35 Rimmer1

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 01:29 AM

I had a PC who would do this, a Scum who dual weilded auto pistols which were capable of full auto, she used to run into combat real close and unleash hell, we are talking two weapon weilder, full auto capable pistols, manstoppers, gunslinger talent, crack shot and mighty shots.

 

I introduced her to someone who had a force feild and a power sword.


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#36 ColArana

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 01:40 AM

I had a PC who would do this, a Scum who dual weilded auto pistols which were capable of full auto, she used to run into combat real close and unleash hell, we are talking two weapon weilder, full auto capable pistols, manstoppers, gunslinger talent, crack shot and mighty shots.

 

I introduced her to someone who had a force feild and a power sword.

 

this would be great! ...Except that something like that would completely decimate our current party. Granted, enemies the PC's AREN'T supposed to fight, are a fun idea, but as our characters left off the last session fleeing for their lives from what my Psyker suspects may be a daemon, or at the very least a Beta level Psyker, the GM's got that angle covered.



#37 Cymbel

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 02:03 AM

Full auto isn't perfect, but assume that the recoil is throwing off their shots and it is the cumulative penalty, instead of trying to work out each round.

 

Lots of lead in the air, harder to control it's spread.

 

Works well with: Close up (hard to miss), Big (hard to miss), suppressing (don't care if you miss).

 

Look at what the IRL military uses for full auto, to suppress and for heavy weapons support



#38 Lynata

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 06:14 AM

Full auto isn't perfect, but assume that the recoil is throwing off their shots and it is the cumulative penalty, instead of trying to work out each round.

Lots of lead in the air, harder to control it's spread.

 

I thought that's why you "only" get a +20 in spite of firing 10 rounds. ;)

 

Though, in fairness, I think the modifier should really depend on the exact weapon... The ammo waste is considerably bigger with the standard Autogun than with some other full auto weapons - such as the Armageddon, and that gun has +1 damage to boot.

 

Abstraction included, I think the DH version of Full Auto was a pretty smart idea. As hinted at above, I would try some changes to differentiate better between individual weapons, but I thought the basic idea was remarkably good.


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#39 Braddoc

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 07:53 AM


Look at what the IRL military uses for full auto, to suppress and for heavy weapons support

 

Please let's stop using real life to draw logic into DH.

I find it odd that untrained acolytes have a +20 to fire full auto, while trained guardsmen got a -10 for the same action;  Seriously, that change to me is/was ridiculous and only made to please a few people who, unfortunately I believe, were stuck with people more intrested into game-system exploitation than role play, and had an unexplained search/need for realism in a far fetched sci-fi fantasy setting.



#40 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 08:39 AM

Untrained acolytes have a +20 to fire full auto, while trained guardsmen get a -10 for the same action in different games with different mechanics? This is a matter of puzzlement?

 

I originally hated the BC/OW change but after some experience I see I was wrong. It is a great improvement.


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