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Priest at the Crags


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#1 The Hunter

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 01:31 PM

If the Priest gets attacked by a Spirit at the Crags, can he still use his ability to destroy it, and gain a spell if his Cract allows?

#2 The_Warlock

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 02:27 PM

No, the Spirit in the Crags is a creature, not an Enemy-Spirit.
As I said in another thread about Warlock Quests, it could have received any other name instead of "Spirit" and avoid this kind of confusion.



#3 gnarly1

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 03:50 PM

In the digital edition the priest is allowed to do so.


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#4 Croonos

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 02:53 AM

I think it was somewhere said on this forum that Digital Editon rules can not be compared with a game board beacuse it is the product of two different companies...



#5 Artaterxes

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 04:06 PM

Yes, ideally they would be identical...

 

While technically, Nomad and FFG have no obligation to each other (being contracted by GW), they should be consistent. And FFG's rulings should be taken as official because their team consists of designers and playtesters, whereas I think Nomad consists mainly of computer programmers (rather than creative content developers).

 

So even though the digital edition is a "constantly-updated rules clarification machine..." when we play the physical board game, I think only the rules from FFG should count.

 

If a question arises that has not been covered by FFG's FAQ, then sure, copy what the digital edition does... until FFG addresses it themselves.


Edited by Artaterxes, 13 February 2014 - 05:40 PM.


#6 The Hunter

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 10:52 AM

I was doing some research to find out if the Assassin can assassinate the Pit Fiends (it appears he can according to his character card and the core rulebook), I checked the Priest's abilities.

 

His card says:

You may choose to automatically destroy any Spirits without resorting to psychic combat. When you destroy a Spirit in this manner, you may not keep the Enemy as a trophy but you may gain one Spell.

[Underlining mine]

 

This implies the Priest can destroy Spirit Creatures as well as Spirit Enemies.

But I'm not sure if the Priest can gain a spell from killing a Spirit Creature like he would if he destroyed a Spirit Enemy.



#7 The_Warlock

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 12:04 PM

I checked the Priest's abilities.

 

His card says:

You may choose to automatically destroy any Spirits without resorting to psychic combat. When you destroy a Spirit in this manner, you may not keep the Enemy as a trophy but you may gain one Spell.

[Underlining mine]

 

This implies the Priest can destroy Spirit Creatures as well as Spirit Enemies.

But I'm not sure if the Priest can gain a spell from killing a Spirit Creature like he would if he destroyed a Spirit Enemy.

 

What is a "Spirit Creature"?

 

A “creature” is any encounter (other than a character) that attacks with Strength or Craft. This may include Enemy cards and also Events, Strangers, Places, Spells, and board spaces.

 

An “Enemy” is any Adventure Card with the word “Enemy” in the card type box.

(all Enemies are also creatures)

 

What the rules don't have explicitly written is what a "Spirit" is, but this section is quite clear:

 

Enemy – Spirit
These Enemies attack any character encountering them by engaging that character in psychic combat. Killed Enemies of this type may be kept as trophies to be exchanged for Craft (see “Trophies” on page 14). Enemies that defeat characters remain in the space.

 

In game terms, "Spirit" is always associated to the word "Enemy" and together they form a particular "Card Type", as shown in the "Card Anatomy" box at page 7. On all card wordings, "Spirit" it is only a short form for "Enemy-Spirit", just like "Dragon" is a short form for "Enemy-Dragon" and "Animal" a short form for "Enemy-Animal".

 

A Spirit is an Enemy and an Enemy is a creature, so a Spirit is a creature. But a creature is not necessarily an Enemy and not necessarily a Spirit. A "Spirit creature" does not exist according to the rules. Are you attacked by a "Brigand creature" if you roll a 1 in the Forest? Are you attacked by a "Farmer creature" at the Tavern? Surely they are creatures but their names don't mean a thing.

 

The full rules picture suggests that Spirits, together with Animals, Constructs, Cultists, Dragons, Elementals, Law and Monsters, form a subsystem called "Enemies". Enemies, together with other Card types and board spaces that attack your character with Strength or Craft, form a subsystem called "creatures".

 

However, since thematically it might be appropriate for the Priest to destroy the Spirit in the Crags or the Minstrel not to be attacked by the Dragon in the Cave, house-rule it if you want to.


Edited by The_Warlock, 10 March 2014 - 12:06 PM.


#8 Vandal Thorne

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 10:21 AM

 

I checked the Priest's abilities.

 

His card says:

You may choose to automatically destroy any Spirits without resorting to psychic combat. When you destroy a Spirit in this manner, you may not keep the Enemy as a trophy but you may gain one Spell.

[Underlining mine]

 

This implies the Priest can destroy Spirit Creatures as well as Spirit Enemies.

But I'm not sure if the Priest can gain a spell from killing a Spirit Creature like he would if he destroyed a Spirit Enemy.

 

What is a "Spirit Creature"?

 

A “creature” is any encounter (other than a character) that attacks with Strength or Craft. This may include Enemy cards and also Events, Strangers, Places, Spells, and board spaces.

 

An “Enemy” is any Adventure Card with the word “Enemy” in the card type box.

(all Enemies are also creatures)

 

What the rules don't have explicitly written is what a "Spirit" is, but this section is quite clear:

 

Enemy – Spirit
These Enemies attack any character encountering them by engaging that character in psychic combat. Killed Enemies of this type may be kept as trophies to be exchanged for Craft (see “Trophies” on page 14). Enemies that defeat characters remain in the space.

 

In game terms, "Spirit" is always associated to the word "Enemy" and together they form a particular "Card Type", as shown in the "Card Anatomy" box at page 7. On all card wordings, "Spirit" it is only a short form for "Enemy-Spirit", just like "Dragon" is a short form for "Enemy-Dragon" and "Animal" a short form for "Enemy-Animal".

 

A Spirit is an Enemy and an Enemy is a creature, so a Spirit is a creature. But a creature is not necessarily an Enemy and not necessarily a Spirit. A "Spirit creature" does not exist according to the rules. Are you attacked by a "Brigand creature" if you roll a 1 in the Forest? Are you attacked by a "Farmer creature" at the Tavern? Surely they are creatures but their names don't mean a thing.

 

The full rules picture suggests that Spirits, together with Animals, Constructs, Cultists, Dragons, Elementals, Law and Monsters, form a subsystem called "Enemies". Enemies, together with other Card types and board spaces that attack your character with Strength or Craft, form a subsystem called "creatures".

 

However, since thematically it might be appropriate for the Priest to destroy the Spirit in the Crags or the Minstrel not to be attacked by the Dragon in the Cave, house-rule it if you want to.

 

 

This ruling seems incredibly clunky. By extension this means that the Dragons and Goblins in the Cave and Demons, Wights, and Shadows (was it Shadows?) in the Crypt are also creatures but are not "Enemies." This seems to overburden the whole keywording gimmick.

 

Better would be something like, "Enemies that appear as part of a location's or spell's effect, as opposed to those which are drawn as cards (i.e., card type, Enemy), cannot be claimed as trophies if defeated and do not activate other card abilities when defeated. For example defeating the Farmer result on the Tavern space while using the Runesword does not result in the Runesword's wielder gaining a life and, similarly, the Priest may use his ability to destroy the Spirit at the Crags or the Demon, Wight, or Shadow at the Crypt but, he cannot gain a spell for destroying the spirit in either of these cases." 

 

What you have above is semantic nightmare that is needlessly confusing to anyone who isn't a rules' lawyer. Other areas of the rulebook are similarly poorly worded, such as the difference between "battle" and "psychic combat" which isn't clearly established and must be inferred during gameplay. Similarly, the Ghoul's ability to claim defeated enemies but only use their strength in battle implies that he can convert defeated spirits into followers but that they have no further game effect (except that perhaps he could sacrifice them at the Vampire's Tower in lieu of other followers). 


Edited by Vandal Thorne, 11 March 2014 - 10:24 AM.


#9 DomaGB

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 05:30 PM

That is correct the Dragon in the cave and the other examples you gave do not classify in those categories. No using special abilities, no turning in trophies and so on.


RoboRally, then Talisman. That's the way it is... ;)


#10 The_Warlock

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 07:48 PM

This ruling seems incredibly clunky. By extension this means that the Dragons and Goblins in the Cave and Demons, Wights, and Shadows (was it Shadows?) in the Crypt are also creatures but are not "Enemies." This seems to overburden the whole keywording gimmick.

 

Better would be something like, "Enemies that appear as part of a location's or spell's effect, as opposed to those which are drawn as cards (i.e., card type, Enemy), cannot be claimed as trophies if defeated and do not activate other card abilities when defeated. For example defeating the Farmer result on the Tavern space while using the Runesword does not result in the Runesword's wielder gaining a life and, similarly, the Priest may use his ability to destroy the Spirit at the Crags or the Demon, Wight, or Shadow at the Crypt but, he cannot gain a spell for destroying the spirit in either of these cases." 

 

What you have above is semantic nightmare that is needlessly confusing to anyone who isn't a rules' lawyer.

 

I usually give explanations based on existing rules, this is the reason why I quote existing rules in italics.

 

If you think that concepts like "creatures" and "Enemies" overburden the whole keyword gimmick, you are missing important rules from the basic game. They are not fancy interpretations used by rules lawyers to confuse innocent players; they are an essential distinction used in the game design to separate Enemies on the Adventure Cards from encounters described on the board spaces that attack with Strength or Craft.

 

Special abilities and card effects always distinguish between Enemies and creatures; effects applicable to creatures affect also Enemies, but not vice versa. However, the effect wording does always say "Spirits", "Dragons", "Animals", "Monsters", as short forms for "Enemy-Spirits", "Enemy-Dragons" and so on.

 

In the Crags you may be attacked by a Spirit with Craft 4, but this does not allow using any ability that affects Enemy-Spirits. Why? Because it is a creature, not an Enemy. Being called "Spirit" doesn't mean a goddamn thing, he could have been called "Spectre" instead and we wouldn't be losing our wits in this pointless discussion.

 

Other areas of the rulebook are similarly poorly worded, such as the difference between "battle" and "psychic combat" which isn't clearly established and must be inferred during gameplay.

 

I'm the first to say that there are parts in the Rulebook that are poorly worded, but I cannot understand how somebody could miss a sentence like this (Rulebook, page 10):

 

Attacks
Attacks are split into two types:  battles  and psychic combats. 
A battle occurs when a character is attacked by a creature
whose Strength is given, and a psychic combat occurs when
a character is attacked by a creature whose Craft is given. If
a player decides to attack another character, they must fight
a battle unless the attacker has a special ability that lets him
use psychic combat instead.

 

Still, there are many people that do not understand the difference between battle and psychic combat. If you feel that some vital game information is missing, why don't you read the rulebook again?

 

Similarly, the Ghoul's ability to claim defeated enemies but only use their strength in battle implies that he can convert defeated spirits into followers but that they have no further game effect (except that perhaps he could sacrifice them at the Vampire's Tower in lieu of other followers).

 

I assume you believe this because you did not get the difference between battle and psychic combat.

 

When you kill an Enemy in battle, you may raise it from the dead and keep it as a Follower instead of a trophy. You may have one of your raised Followers add its Strength to yours for one battle, after which it disintegrates to the discard pile. You may only use one raised Follower per battle.

 

The Ghoul's ability to raise Enemies is applied only when he defeats Enemies in battle, so no Spirits or other Enemies that have the Craft attribute can be raised, because they fight in psychic combat.


Edited by The_Warlock, 12 March 2014 - 01:12 AM.

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#11 The Hunter

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 12:02 PM

Been reading through some character abilities that can cause confusion, based on what's been discussed.

Here's what I've found:
The Assassin can assassinate board opponents such as farmers, pit fiends, even the Lord of Darkness and the Eagle King on their spaces.
Yet, if using the Dragon expansion or a boss alternate ending, he can't assassinate these because he's on the Crown of Command.

If the Dragon Priestess encounters the Dragon in the Caves, she can't make a sacrifice. (Maybe she can)

If the Minstrel encounters the Dragon in the Caves, he must attack it. (Maybe he can choose not to attack it, but if he does, he would not be able to encounter any other cards after the Caves (which is unlikely) according to the FAQs).

Any characters who have the ability to obtain card opponents as followers are most likely unable to obtain such board opponents (none that I know of) as followers as there would be no cards to represent them.


With this is mind, until a revised FAQ can resolve these matters, I will assume that abilities used with regard to card opponents do not apply to board opponents unless the character card says "creature" (in the case of the Asassin).

#12 The_Warlock

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 03:11 PM

The Assassin can assassinate board opponents such as farmers, pit fiends, even the Lord of Darkness and the Eagle King on their spaces.
Yet, if using the Dragon expansion or a boss alternate ending, he can't assassinate these because he's on the Crown of Command.

 

You got it right. He can to that because board opponents are "creatures" and the Assassin applies his ability to creatures. You're also correct on the Draconic Lord and Ending bosses.

 

If the Dragon Priestess encounters the Dragon in the Caves, she can't make a sacrifice. (Maybe she can)

If the Minstrel encounters the Dragon in the Caves, he must attack it. (Maybe he can choose not to attack it, but if he does, he would not be able to encounter any other cards after the Caves (which is unlikely) according to the FAQs).

 

The doubt you may have here is whether "Dragon" means "Enemy-Dragon" or "any encounter featuring the word 'Dragon' ".

 

The first is a quite safe assumption, because all character special abilities put the concept in the same fashion (Necromancer enthralls 'Spirits'='Enemy-Spirits', Ogre Chieftain dominates 'Monsters'='Enemy-Monsters', Elementalist automatically kills 'Elementals'='Enemy-Elementals', and so on); assuming the second is a flight of fancy (the next question would be: can she offer a sacrifice when she encounters the Dragon Sprite Stranger?).

 

Any characters who have the ability to obtain card opponents as followers are most likely unable to obtain such board opponents (none that I know of) as followers as there would be no cards to represent them.

 

No, they won't be able to do this because such abilities always refer to "Enemies", not to "creatures".

 

With this is mind, until a revised FAQ can resolve these matters, I will assume that abilities used with regard to card opponents do not apply to board opponents unless the character card says "creature" (in the case of the Asassin).

 

Ok, but "creatures" and "Enemies" are keywords defined in the rulebook (see the box "Creatures and Enemies" on page 10). You can't ask for a FAQ to address an explicitly given rule! The assumption you are making here is no assumption, is the normal application of the rule.

 

Sorry if I insist, but the more I read your doubts, the more I'm convinced that you ignore or misinterpret the above rule. It's better for you to understand that rule well; your current doubts will be fewer than now.



#13 The Hunter

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 03:43 PM

Thanks for the agreements on my speculations.

When I first bought the game, I applied the abilities to Enemy cards.

Board opponents never crossed my mind until the recent game.


I was reading a previous post I made and, being a Sheldon Cooper type geek, I tend to take the wording too seriously. In some cases, me and a friend may disagree on the wording, and the answers provided prove that I'm right, others proving I'm wrong.
In future, I will accept the answers provided.
However, when playing games, questions tend to arise and I will post them as as and when they occur.

In view of tjis subject, I will accept the original answer to my question.

I will apply the Enemy/Creature rule as I did when I first bought the game.
If a friend raises a similar question in the future, I will say that the matter was discussed in this forum.


Hopefully therefore I consider this matter closed!

Edited by The Hunter, 13 March 2014 - 03:58 PM.


#14 The_Warlock

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 12:50 AM

No problem Hunter, my purpose was to help you find the answer within the existing rules. The original question was a good one, so please continue submitting your questions in the forum as you find appropriate.

 

The discussion attracted other users and it has shown that there are still many doubts around, so it was a good discussion. :)






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