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#21 booored

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 03:53 AM

it is conjecture.. but one works with common sense and logic and the other doesn't


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#22 alogos

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 04:08 AM

ahah, didn't read the text I quoted... I was so sure it was written here... my bad !

 

Strange.... where was it... ah!

 

Should I have quote that text instead? seems better : 

 

 

 

(1.37) Timing of effect resolution
When resolving multiple effects with a shared
condition, players should use this order of resolution:
passive abilities first, Forced effects second, Response
actions third. When determining the order of effect
resolution among abilities within those categories,
players should first resolve abilities that use the word
“when” and then resolve abilities with the word “after”.

Edited by alogos, 10 February 2014 - 04:11 AM.


#23 Nerdmeister

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 04:33 AM

So which type of effect is Thalin´s ability?

Passive? Because then eastern crows will not activate their forced effect.

Or is it unique? It does after all have a separate area in the FAQ, which states nothing about it being passive. Though this may, in all fairness have something to do with the fact that passive wasn´t really defined in the early days of the game (but that is more conjecture).

If it is unique then it follows that eastern crows has been in play (as per the witch-king ruling) and thus that it´s forced effect will activate.

 

Quoting Timing of effect resolution doesn´t do much, so long as Thalin´s ability itself is not clearly defined.

 

EDIT: I personally believe Thalin´s effect is a passive ability.


Edited by Nerdmeister, 10 February 2014 - 04:51 AM.


#24 alogos

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 05:06 AM

It is passive... passive is anything in text without a bold keyword. Also in the rulebook (not so sure, it's been a while).

 

But why should it prevents the crows from procing their Forced effect ? The forced effect proc when the crows dies, not when revealed...



#25 Nerdmeister

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 05:09 AM

And thus we are back to square one: it is all conjecture



#26 booored

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 05:50 AM

I personally believe Thalin´s effect is a passive ability.

 

Because then eastern crows will not activate their forced effect.

 

 

it is passive, there is no keyword, so it exists outside the timing structure like all the other passive effects in the game. It is "always on".


Edited by booored, 10 February 2014 - 05:58 AM.

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#27 Nerdmeister

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 06:18 AM

 

it is passive, there is no keyword, so it exists outside the timing structure like all the other passive effects in the game. It is "always on".

 

Well it is "always on" inside of the time-frame given by the card itself, from you exhaust Thalin for the quest till the end of the quest phase.

But in principle, yes that is the way I see it.


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#28 alogos

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 06:36 AM

And thus we are back to square one: it is all conjecture

 

Not following you...

 

Thalin effect is a passive (p23 of rulebook), it occures before keyword (p2 of the faq), that's why surge is not happening.

Forced effect is trigger when crow dies. Be it while being revealed or already in the staging area, it is, in both cases, in play. It's forced effect don't occures when he is revealed, knowing if it should proc before or after Thalin's effect has no importance. (but from p.7 of the faq, you now know that constant happen before Forced when relevant...)

 

Don't understand what you are missing.

 

And I search the rulebook for you: p23 

 

 

Constant Effects
Constant effects continually affect the game state as
long as the card is in play and any other specified
conditions are met. These effects have no bold trigger,
as they are always active.

They say constant instead of passive, but it's all the same.

 

Please explain clearly what you think is conjecture.



#29 GrandSpleen

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 09:44 AM

I'm surprised there is so much debate.  Forced effects are active when the card is in play.  It'll have to trigger.

 

As for this "draw / reveal" distinction, the word "draw" is never used in reference to the encounter deck as far as I can tell.  You can "reveal" a card from the encounter deck, "look at" or "search" it and then "add" cards to the staging area... but I don't recall ever seeing a card, or language in the FAQ or manual, that indicates cards are "drawn" from the encounter deck.  Language is used very purposefully when rules are written, so I wouldn't go introducing vocabulary where it isn't specifically used.


Edited by GrandSpleen, 10 February 2014 - 09:58 AM.


#30 Noccus

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 09:55 AM

I'm with GrandSpleen on this one.
If a card is drawn/taken/revealed or whatever; it is in play.
Thalin does damage before any text on the cards proc as his ability is passive.
So you place a damage token on the cards IN PLAY, before their abilities proc.
Thus the crows are damaged/destroyed/killed or whatever, and THEN it's forced ability procs.
Which means shuffeling it back into the encouter deck.
But that's just how I see the logical steps.

Maybe it's better to clarify by asking for a ruling on it, as I'd like to know.

Edited by Noccus, 10 February 2014 - 02:38 PM.

"Not all those who wander are lost"

#31 Mndela

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 11:29 AM

In addition, if you use this event:

 

ffg_expecting-mischief-ohauh.jpg

 

And the first revealed enemy is:

 

ffg_cavern-guardian-core.jpg

 

you dont raise your threat level by 1,

 

neither:

 

ffg_black-forest-bats-core.jpg

 

you havent to trigger the 'when revealed' text.


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#32 Noccus

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 12:21 PM

True, no question there.
The point on the crows card is different though, as it's forced ability procs after it is destroyed.
"Not all those who wander are lost"

#33 Nerdmeister

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 04:17 PM

Seem to recall a very old ruling stating that the crow does not get shuffled back but seems that is outdated now. Anyways I asked Caleb so we can get closure on it:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If Thalin destroys Eastern Crows after it is revealed from the encounter deck, it will trigger its Forced effect and get shuffled back into the encounter deck. If it was the last card in the encounter deck, then it will be placed back as the only card in the encounter deck.
Cheers,
Caleb



#34 GrandSpleen

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 04:29 PM

Thanks for asking Nerdmeister.



#35 booored

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 05:32 PM

I got a reply form Caleb.. witch is the EXACT opposite form the one I got from Nate a few years ago. This is the 4th rule that they have completely reversed on me. Not even the designers know what the hell they are talkign about.

 

Rule Question:
Thalin + Eastern Crows..

In the FAQ it says that the card is destroyed before the keywords (like surge) resolve.

Doesn't this also mean the response text can not resolve either and when a crow is killed by Thalin during the staging step of the ques phase it is not shuffled into the encounter deck, but instead goes into the discard pile?

Thanks.

 

 

Hi,
The text on the Eastern Crow will still resolve after Thalin destroys it, which will shuffle it back into the encounter deck.
Cheers,
Caleb

 

ffg_expecting-mischief-ohauh.jpg
 

 

I also put in a question about this card, as logic has nothing to do with this game.. who the **** knows?

 

 

Seem to recall a very old ruling stating that the crow does not get shuffled back but seems that is outdated now. Anyways I asked Caleb so we can get closure on it:

 

Yeah.. Old Hands like us still use the Nate ruling.


Edited by booored, 10 February 2014 - 06:52 PM.

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#36 alogos

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 06:28 PM

Ahah, this one (expecting mischief) is a pure exemple of b**s** ruling : Thalin is an errata, and the explanation given (because there is an official answer for it) is that expecting mischieve having the same wording as Thalin (and it is an action but that create a constant effect during the whole phase) it should be working the same.

 

A card, written like another who have been errated, should work as if it were also errated...

 

Works for me as I'm very tolerant. But I don't use pure logic when trying to understand some of their rules...



#37 GrandSpleen

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 09:22 PM

I don't know, plenty of people in this thread have arrived at the correct play sequence using very logical explanations.

 

Thalin is in the "errata" section of the FAQ, but his card text was never changed, so it's hard to say that the card was actually errata'd.  It looks misplaced in the FAQ, really it should be in the question-answer section.


Edited by GrandSpleen, 10 February 2014 - 09:26 PM.


#38 booored

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 09:37 PM

That is because the designers changed from Nate to Caleb.. and Caleb has ruled a different 3ay to the way it was originally rulled.


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