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Infinite Loop?


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#1 Locksley

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 01:55 AM

Situation: Three player game, Journey Down the Anduin, Thalin (one of the heroes on the table).

 

Games progresses along, going through the encounter deck and deal with the Eastern Crows as they come up.  Deck gets down to three cards, which are the crows.  Staging portion of the quest begins, first crow hits the table, surge kicks off, then Thalin's response kicks off killing the crow, shuffles back into the deck.  Then we deal with the next crow because of the surge then go through the same sequence. 

 

We didn't know what to do, so we shuffled the discards back into the deck.  My question is, does Thalin's effect take precedence over the surge effect, or is it the other way.  Or, does surge kick off on each crow, then resolve Thalin's response, thus killing all the crows, which are shuffled back into the deck, which would be just those three cards, ending the potential of a loop?



#2 booored

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 03:10 AM

Thalin's ability destroys the crow before surge can finalize... so they die.. no surge. Also they are not "defeated" in combat.. so they do not get shuffled back into the encounter deck


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#3 Locksley

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 03:58 AM

Thanks for the info.



#4 alogos

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 04:58 PM

What ?

They do get shuffled back into the encounter deck. Their forced effect doesn't need to be proced in "combat". Defeat require to be dealt enought damage, that's what Thalin does. 

From rulebook :

 

 

Any time one of these cards has 0 hit points, it is
immediately defeated.

 

They don't get surge, that's from the faq.



#5 Mndela

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 05:03 PM

Yeah:

1. Thalin kills crows

2. Crows are returned to the encounter deck and it is shuffled

3. Surge effect doesnt trigger.

 

 

PD: if you have 3 last cards and all they are crows... good luck. Not leave Thalin to quest each round! You will win sure.


A wizard is never late..., he arrives precisely when it is the last round


#6 booored

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 05:44 PM

no they don't go back in the deck as they are not defeated. This was confirmed multiple times by the designer.

 

Thalins ability removes the card form play even before it is "revealed" .. even before keywords trigger.. it is the same as discarding it from he top of the encounter deck...


Edited by booored, 08 February 2014 - 05:53 PM.

"People should be less concerned about whether they are being insulted and more concerned if it is the truth"

#7 GrandSpleen

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 07:51 PM

booored maybe you are remembering that "discarded" and "defeated" are different (i.e., you can't trigger Landroval if Borormir uses his self-discarding action because he wasn't "defeated")

 

But official replies from Nate, along with the game manual, that "defeated" means a character leaving play as a result of damage tokens being placed on it.

 

"Defeated and destroyed both refer to a character or enemy receiving damage that reduces its hit points to zero, and then being placed in the appropriate discard pile."

 

origin thread is here: http://www.boardgame...7608788#7608788

 

edit: if "defeated" referred only to damage from combat, Landroval couldn't save heroes who die from Treachery card effects either.


Edited by GrandSpleen, 08 February 2014 - 07:59 PM.


#8 GrandSpleen

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 07:56 PM

as for the infinite loop, boored is right: the cards will not Surge when Thalin defeats them, so even if you shuffle them back into the encounter deck, there is no loop.



#9 booored

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 08:59 PM

he doesn't get dmg tokens. the card never even enters play, witch is why the keywords do not trigger.... it is exactly the same as if you discard it off the top of the encounter deck.


Edited by booored, 08 February 2014 - 09:17 PM.

"People should be less concerned about whether they are being insulted and more concerned if it is the truth"

#10 GrandSpleen

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 09:34 PM

Look, nothing but respect... Sometimes you say smart things Mr. booored, but sometimes you say things like "he doesn't get damage tokens" and "he doesn't even enter play."

 

*facepalm*


Edited by GrandSpleen, 08 February 2014 - 09:34 PM.

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#11 booored

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 09:42 PM

just cause you can not understand it doesn't mean it isn't true.

 

The cards never enter play.. this is why the keywords do not resolve, and ALSO why the response text is never able to activate.


Edited by booored, 08 February 2014 - 09:43 PM.

"People should be less concerned about whether they are being insulted and more concerned if it is the truth"

#12 alogos

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 04:02 AM

I also though that cards revealed where not in play before reaching the staging area, but they are :

http://community.fan...and-witch-king/

 

The enemy is killed before its "when revealed" effect complete because thalin is a passive (that what the faq say if I remember right).

 

 

 

 

to booored : I have seen enough ruling made up on the fly to stop asking myself if they made sense...


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#13 GrandSpleen

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 11:37 AM

yeah, it's a question of resolution order, not of whether or not the card is in play.  Of course you cannot damage a card that has not entered play, and of course you cannot damage a card without putting damage tokens on it (in the 'rules' sense... use dice or whatever, but tokens were placed in spirit).

 

Card gets revealed, then order of resolution would be: 1) reveal card, 2) Thalin's damage, 3) resolve keywords including setting up the next card with Surge, 4) resolve When Revealed, 5) add the card to the staging area, and 6) resolve the card that was Surged.  So if the original card is destroyed by Thalin's damage, the rest doesn't trigger.  But the original card was certainly 'in play.'  



#14 Mndela

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 12:31 PM

One question. If crows had the 'hidden' keyword. The player must do a hidden check?


A wizard is never late..., he arrives precisely when it is the last round


#15 GrandSpleen

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 01:11 PM

No, Thalin's damage comes before any keywords.  The crows would be destroyed before any keywords could trigger.



#16 Mndela

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 01:28 PM

Ok, thanks.


A wizard is never late..., he arrives precisely when it is the last round


#17 booored

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 05:01 PM

order of resolution would be: 1) reveal card, 2) Thalin's damage, 3) resolve keywords including setting up the next card with Surge, 4) resolve When Revealed, 5) add the card to the staging area, and 6) resolve the card that was Surged.  So if the original card is destroyed by Thalin's damage, the rest doesn't trigger.  But the original card was certainly 'in play.'  

 

No... revealing a card is when the keywords trigger.

 

it is DRAW card... Thalin dmg, reveal, keywords, when revealed....


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#18 Nerdmeister

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 02:25 AM

I have been playing it the way Booored describes based on the wording from the FAQ that Thalin´s ability comes before any other effects (I deliberately avoided quoting it because this is the ´feeling´ I had after reading the FAQ).

 

But I must admit that even though I still believe this to be the correct approach, I cannot seem to find any hard evidence either way in the FAQ. If any of you have read such please refer me to it. Until then this is all conjecture to me.



#19 alogos

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 03:30 AM

 

order of resolution would be: 1) reveal card, 2) Thalin's damage, 3) resolve keywords including setting up the next card with Surge, 4) resolve When Revealed, 5) add the card to the staging area, and 6) resolve the card that was Surged.  So if the original card is destroyed by Thalin's damage, the rest doesn't trigger.  But the original card was certainly 'in play.'  

 

No... revealing a card is when the keywords trigger.

 

it is DRAW card... Thalin dmg, reveal, keywords, when revealed....

 

 

There is no definition in the rulebook for it, but I would prefere "draw" than using "reveal" which is too close to "when revealed". The rulebook use mainly "reveal" though...

 

I have been playing it the way Booored describes based on the wording from the FAQ that Thalin´s ability comes before any other effects (I deliberately avoided quoting it because this is the ´feeling´ I had after reading the FAQ).

 

But I must admit that even though I still believe this to be the correct approach, I cannot seem to find any hard evidence either way in the FAQ. If any of you have read such please refer me to it. Until then this is all conjecture to me.

 

We said it's in the faq... just look it up :

 

 

Thalin CORE 6
When an enemy card is revealed from the encounter
deck, Thalin’s ability resolves before any keyword or
“When Revealed” card effects on the encounter card.

Edited by alogos, 10 February 2014 - 03:31 AM.


#20 Nerdmeister

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 03:41 AM

@Alogos

And that would be the exact quote which I directly state that I deliberately did not use.

Anyways that quote says nothing about forced effects or really much at all about the main question as to whether the crows forced effect will be activated.

As I said: to me this is merely conjecture






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