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Upgrades/Pilots that we never use...Convince us we are wrong


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#81 DraconPyrothayan

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 08:08 AM

 

 

Now, both Interceptors are focused upon by the enemy fleet of 4 X-Wings each! Oh no!

The PTL INT prevents 1 damage, thanks to the Evade token.

The Elusiveness INT prevents more than 1 damage, because Captain Yorr is sniping the stress from its activation, meaning he gets bonus defenses from every attack.

 

Aha!  now we get to my contention with Elusiveness.  See you are assuming that Elusiveness prevents more than 1 damage because of Capt. Yor's ability.  However, I am saying that it won't prevent any (or maybe 1 if your lucky, and that's across all 4 x-wing attacks!).  You see, what I am trying to say here, is that the re-roll you get from Elusiveness rarely (if ever) actually mitigates damage!  Have you used this list significantly and seen your opponent frequently re-roll hits/crits into blanks when you use Elusiveness?  Because I certainly haven't and as mentioned in my 1st post, I have used it over a dozen times (and only once did it change a crit into a hit - the rest of the time the opponent re-rolled the original result again).

 

So the most likely event is that the 4 x-wings attack the 2 interceptors and deal the same damage they would with or without you using Elusiveness (all you end up gaining when using it is the stress tokens - kinda harsh to pay 2 pts for an ability that gives you a stress token and you get nothing in return more often than not).  Whereas having the evade tokens means damage is definitely mitigated because there is no uncertainty in an evade token stopping a hit.

If your opponent is focused, and is planning on using that focus offensively, Elusiveness has a 1/4 chance of eliminating a hit, and a 1/8 chance of turning it into a crit (with a 5/8 chance of doing nothing). However, it has a 1/4 chance of eliminating a Crit, and a 5/8 chance of reducing it to a hit.

If your opponent is Target Locked or did not receive an offensive action, the 1/4 chances in both rise to 1/2, and the 5/8s fall to 3/8s.

 

However, one of the biggest kickers to me is that I can use Elusiveness with a defensive action, and get more use out of that than I do out of two defensive actions.

It is also effective against Carnor Jax and Homing Missiles, both of which prevent defensive Focus and Evade tokens from being spent.

Also, unlike Evade or Focus, Elusiveness + Yorr can be used to defend against multiple attacks.



#82 That One Guy

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 08:39 AM

Mostly because I had 4 academies and there wasn't really room to put them in a more lateral arrangement. I had to use some 5s to close the distance and I tried to get him towards the edge, but breaking 2 banks got blocked so I couldn't get the action. I thought that because it was "may perform a free focus action" he had to be free to take actions. If not wouldn't it be "place a focus token" or something?

No, the language is to keep you from focusing again in the same round. If it said "assign a focus token" then you could perform the green maneuver, get the focus token, then perform a focus. They didn't want that. 


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#83 Khyros

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 09:53 AM

Lets take a look at elusiveness.  First off, before we get into math, let's just go ahead and say that it forces the attacker to take a focus instead of a TL, that is worth something by itself, and it prevents the F+TL stacking (well, not entirely, but surely discourages it)  Now, lets look at a 3 dice attack.  Before any mods come into play, the following are the results... I'm calling a crit a hit because that's how all of my models are setup.

 

Hit hit hit (.125)*

hit hit focus (.1875)

hit hit blank (.1875)*

hit focus focus (.09375)

hit focus blank (.1875)

hit blank blank (.09375)*

focus focus focus (.015625)

focus focus blank (.046875)

focus blank blank (.046875)

blank blank blank (.015625)

 

So... now let's go ahead and say that typically higher PS pilots have EPTs, and as such, the opponent was already attacked and spent his focus on Defense.  Before elusiveness is rolled, he has a 12.5% chance of 3 hits, 37.5% chance of 2 hits, 37.5% of 1 hit, 12.5% of 0 hits, for an average damage of 1.5 hits.  We would not use it on the 0 hits, so it would only be used 87.5% of the time.  You now have a 50% chance of turning a hit into a miss.  That changes the hit distribution to the following:  3 hits = 6.25%, 2 hits = 25%, 1 hit = 37.5%, 0 hits = 31.25%, for an average damage of 1.0625.  You have reduced the incoming damage by 29.2%, and you're only getting stressed 87.5% of the time.  If you want to weight out what the 1 stress is worth, it is 33.3% damage reduction.

 

 

 

So now, if the opponent has a Focus for whatever reason, elusiveness has two potential uses - force the opponent to spend the token when he otherwise wouldn't, and to remove damage.  So, I've starred the results that would address spending the otherwise unspent token, totalling 40.625% of the offensive rolls.  In these rolls, the attacker has rolled a combo of hits and blanks, rerolling a hit provides a 25% chance of forcing him to spend the token, and a 25% chance of creating a miss.  So, now you've raised the focus spending from 59.375% to 69.53%, this is increases the attacker's focus spending by 17%, exposing him on defense.

 

The second part is the damage reduction possibility.  Before elusiveness, 3 hits = 42%, 2 hits = 42%, 1 hit = 14%, 0 hits = 2%, for an average damage of 2.25.  After elusiveness, 3 hits = 31.5%, 2 hits = 42%, 1 hit = 21%, 0 hits = 5.5%, for an average damage of 1.995, a reduction of 11.3%.  

 

So to your point, elusiveness doesn't do much against an attacker with a focus.  But there are plenty of times when an opponent doesn't have focus, such as after a red maneuver, bump, boost, barrel roll, ordnance, Dutch, crits, evade, spent on defense, etc.  In those situations, it would better to wait until the ship w/o the focus is attacking, then use elusiveness.  

 

 

As pointed out though, for 1 additional point, you could get PTL, and then if you evaded every turn, it would be a garenteed damage mitigation.  However, this does not work on every ship, Non-MF YTs, X wings, B wings, HWKs, TIE/sa all do not have an evade action.  And the 1 point difference can often make a squad work / not work.


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#84 DraconPyrothayan

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 09:24 PM

Lets take a look at elusiveness.  First off, before we get into math, let's just go ahead and say that it forces the attacker to take a focus instead of a TL, that is worth something by itself, and it prevents the F+TL stacking (well, not entirely, but surely discourages it)  Now, lets look at a 3 dice attack.  Before any mods come into play, the following are the results... I'm calling a crit a hit because that's how all of my models are setup.

 

Hit hit hit (.125)*

hit hit focus (.1875)

hit hit blank (.1875)*

hit focus focus (.09375)

hit focus blank (.1875)

hit blank blank (.09375)*

focus focus focus (.015625)

focus focus blank (.046875)

focus blank blank (.046875)

blank blank blank (.015625)

 

So... now let's go ahead and say that typically higher PS pilots have EPTs, and as such, the opponent was already attacked and spent his focus on Defense.  Before elusiveness is rolled, he has a 12.5% chance of 3 hits, 37.5% chance of 2 hits, 37.5% of 1 hit, 12.5% of 0 hits, for an average damage of 1.5 hits.  We would not use it on the 0 hits, so it would only be used 87.5% of the time.  You now have a 50% chance of turning a hit into a miss.  That changes the hit distribution to the following:  3 hits = 6.25%, 2 hits = 25%, 1 hit = 37.5%, 0 hits = 31.25%, for an average damage of 1.0625.  You have reduced the incoming damage by 29.2%, and you're only getting stressed 87.5% of the time.  If you want to weight out what the 1 stress is worth, it is 33.3% damage reduction.

 

 

 

So now, if the opponent has a Focus for whatever reason, elusiveness has two potential uses - force the opponent to spend the token when he otherwise wouldn't, and to remove damage.  So, I've starred the results that would address spending the otherwise unspent token, totalling 40.625% of the offensive rolls.  In these rolls, the attacker has rolled a combo of hits and blanks, rerolling a hit provides a 25% chance of forcing him to spend the token, and a 25% chance of creating a miss.  So, now you've raised the focus spending from 59.375% to 69.53%, this is increases the attacker's focus spending by 17%, exposing him on defense.

 

The second part is the damage reduction possibility.  Before elusiveness, 3 hits = 42%, 2 hits = 42%, 1 hit = 14%, 0 hits = 2%, for an average damage of 2.25.  After elusiveness, 3 hits = 31.5%, 2 hits = 42%, 1 hit = 21%, 0 hits = 5.5%, for an average damage of 1.995, a reduction of 11.3%.  

 

So to your point, elusiveness doesn't do much against an attacker with a focus.  But there are plenty of times when an opponent doesn't have focus, such as after a red maneuver, bump, boost, barrel roll, ordnance, Dutch, crits, evade, spent on defense, etc.  In those situations, it would better to wait until the ship w/o the focus is attacking, then use elusiveness.  

 

 

As pointed out though, for 1 additional point, you could get PTL, and then if you evaded every turn, it would be a garenteed damage mitigation.  However, this does not work on every ship, Non-MF YTs, X wings, B wings, HWKs, TIE/sa all do not have an evade action.  And the 1 point difference can often make a squad work / not work.

That being said, Elusiveness' ability to downgrade a Crit is a huge amount of its worth, to me. Considering that Crits usually crop up one-at-a-time, it's like being a Mini-Chewbacca.



#85 That One Guy

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 09:38 PM

 

Lets take a look at elusiveness.  First off, before we get into math, let's just go ahead and say that it forces the attacker to take a focus instead of a TL, that is worth something by itself, and it prevents the F+TL stacking (well, not entirely, but surely discourages it)  Now, lets look at a 3 dice attack.  Before any mods come into play, the following are the results... I'm calling a crit a hit because that's how all of my models are setup.

 

Hit hit hit (.125)*

hit hit focus (.1875)

hit hit blank (.1875)*

hit focus focus (.09375)

hit focus blank (.1875)

hit blank blank (.09375)*

focus focus focus (.015625)

focus focus blank (.046875)

focus blank blank (.046875)

blank blank blank (.015625)

 

So... now let's go ahead and say that typically higher PS pilots have EPTs, and as such, the opponent was already attacked and spent his focus on Defense.  Before elusiveness is rolled, he has a 12.5% chance of 3 hits, 37.5% chance of 2 hits, 37.5% of 1 hit, 12.5% of 0 hits, for an average damage of 1.5 hits.  We would not use it on the 0 hits, so it would only be used 87.5% of the time.  You now have a 50% chance of turning a hit into a miss.  That changes the hit distribution to the following:  3 hits = 6.25%, 2 hits = 25%, 1 hit = 37.5%, 0 hits = 31.25%, for an average damage of 1.0625.  You have reduced the incoming damage by 29.2%, and you're only getting stressed 87.5% of the time.  If you want to weight out what the 1 stress is worth, it is 33.3% damage reduction.

 

 

 

So now, if the opponent has a Focus for whatever reason, elusiveness has two potential uses - force the opponent to spend the token when he otherwise wouldn't, and to remove damage.  So, I've starred the results that would address spending the otherwise unspent token, totalling 40.625% of the offensive rolls.  In these rolls, the attacker has rolled a combo of hits and blanks, rerolling a hit provides a 25% chance of forcing him to spend the token, and a 25% chance of creating a miss.  So, now you've raised the focus spending from 59.375% to 69.53%, this is increases the attacker's focus spending by 17%, exposing him on defense.

 

The second part is the damage reduction possibility.  Before elusiveness, 3 hits = 42%, 2 hits = 42%, 1 hit = 14%, 0 hits = 2%, for an average damage of 2.25.  After elusiveness, 3 hits = 31.5%, 2 hits = 42%, 1 hit = 21%, 0 hits = 5.5%, for an average damage of 1.995, a reduction of 11.3%.  

 

So to your point, elusiveness doesn't do much against an attacker with a focus.  But there are plenty of times when an opponent doesn't have focus, such as after a red maneuver, bump, boost, barrel roll, ordnance, Dutch, crits, evade, spent on defense, etc.  In those situations, it would better to wait until the ship w/o the focus is attacking, then use elusiveness.  

 

 

As pointed out though, for 1 additional point, you could get PTL, and then if you evaded every turn, it would be a garenteed damage mitigation.  However, this does not work on every ship, Non-MF YTs, X wings, B wings, HWKs, TIE/sa all do not have an evade action.  And the 1 point difference can often make a squad work / not work.

That being said, Elusiveness' ability to downgrade a Crit is a huge amount of its worth, to me. Considering that Crits usually crop up one-at-a-time, it's like being a Mini-Chewbacca.

 

Plus it's a good alternative for Soontir Fel if you don't possess PTL or you wanted to put it on someone else (like a bomber).



#86 Kelvan

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 12:37 AM

Sensor jammer is great. It's one of the best defensive upgrades you can take. One of its hidden strengths is that it forces your opponent to use focus for offense. This can be quite important, especially if you shoot first. Do they use the focus to prevent damage before shooting back or not?
 
The biggest problem is that it is only useable on craft that otherwise need that system slot. B-Wings are served much better by advanced sensors and the Lambda is often using FCS or Advanced Sensors. I believe that this upgrade is a sleeper upgrade. Either a new ship will come along with a system slot that can really use this, or more B-Wing builds will start taking it. Right now it's super hard to work this into a 4 ship rebel build, especially at PS4


potentially the low PS tie defender or kagi with a carnor jax flank ship.

#87 Jehan Menasis

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 03:39 AM

I have the feeling that TIE Phantoms + Sensor Jammers will cause some serious headaches...



#88 Magnus Grendel

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 03:52 AM

I have the feeling that TIE Phantoms + Sensor Jammers will cause some serious headaches...

...Oh, hell. That's a fire control system in the box, isn't it? So yes, they are going to be fit-able with sensor jammers.

 

Interesting to see a "fighter" with a crew slot.


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#89 Stone37

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 09:01 AM

 

I have the feeling that TIE Phantoms + Sensor Jammers will cause some serious headaches...

...Oh, hell. That's a fire control system in the box, isn't it? So yes, they are going to be fit-able with sensor jammers.

 

Interesting to see a "fighter" with a crew slot.

 

I've always thought the Y-wing should have had a crew slot.



#90 Stone37

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 09:06 AM

 

 

 

I haven't gotten a a wing yet but I'm surprised I never see anyone use dead eye.
Never hear much that about that
I thought to be able to exchange a focus instead of a target lock could be pretty deadly

 

Yes but only if a card instucts you to use a target lock, which if your using a card you need to discard (Missiles, Torpedoes) which most people try to have target lock and focus, when doing that.

 

 

It can be used OK with something like the Firespray that can carry missles and have a Recon Specialist... APT + Recon + Dead Eye can be deadly

 

 

I tried it a few times, and Deadeye is not worth it. I take Ptl now, does the same for APT and gives me far more options before and after I fire the missile/torp

 

I've only found one good use for Deadeye:  Green w\ Deadeye + Assault Missile.  For 25 points he's an opening round, entire swarm hitting, salvo.  



#91 blade_mercurial

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 01:48 PM

I've only found one good use for Deadeye:  Green w\ Deadeye + Assault Missile.  For 25 points he's an opening round, entire swarm hitting, salvo.  

 

The problem with this is it still takes 2 rounds to fire the missile and statistically speaking, the number of hits generated using deadeye to keep the target lock for re-rolls is not significantly greater than spending the target lock and using the focus token (which is what you'd have to do without deadeye).

 

As for Elusiveness, thank you Dracon and Khyros for taking the time to do your analyses, but looking at your math doesn't make it look much more attractive... remember it still offers only a 'chance' to mitigate damage, not a sure thing, but you are guaranteed to take stress when you use it even if you fail to mitigate any damage.  This means that you are likely taking at least 2 stress tokens for every crit downgraded/hit negated (granted, downgrading a crit is more likely, but negating a hit much less than that).  In fact, looking at your maths, I think its fair to say over the course of a tournament or a string of games, you will be suffering around 2.5 stress per favourable result.  That's just not a good return on your 2 pt investment, and taking all that stress makes your next turn manoeuvring so predictable for your opponent.

 

Anyway, the whole point of this thread was to mention abilities/cards that are never used, and I feel Elusiveness falls into this category.  So far, the only arguments in favour of its usefulness have been purely theoretical.  I don't see anyone talking about how effective it has been for them or discussing lists that they have actually used it with.  Which also kind of proves my point that its not worth taking as is (since no one seems to be using it).

 

Don't get me wrong, I would love for it to be useful.  I like the idea of it.  I still think to make it worthwhile it should only give the stress if after re-rolling the new result is different because in my experience with it, too often your opponent will pick up the die you indicated and roll the exact same result as it was before :(


Edited by blade_mercurial, 11 February 2014 - 01:51 PM.


#92 Khyros

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 02:00 PM

Ibby

  Elusiveness
  Sensor Jammer

  Stealth

Luke

Prototype

Prototype

Total: 99 points

 

You could put DTF on Luke, but the init is important.  You could also change the 2 x Proto to 1 x ORS w/ APL, Nav + IA... that might be the better way to do it actually.

 

Point of the build is to block with the prototypes, denying actions.  As such, they don't have a focus to spend for their attack.  By taking Luke, you dont' give them a good option to shoot at.  The prototypes aren't putting out the hurt and are hard to hit, Luke is defensive to begin with, and Ibby is all jacked up on D.  

 

Since you denied your opponent an action, elusiveness takes away .5 hits.  Meanwhile, sensor jammer takes away a full hit.  So the most they'll have is 2 hits, which would be if they rolled 3 (12.5%) and then rerolled a hit (6.25% overall).  Meanwhile, you have two dice, one of which you can reroll, giving you a 14% chance to natively roll 2 evades, and a 47% to roll 1, but then Ibby's reroll... so you have a 32% chance of rolling 2 evades.  You can check out the "good ibby builds" thread for the full math, but it came out to be soemthing along the lines of .05 damage per attack against her.  And I think it went up to like .3 damage with a focus.  Based on 3 attack dice.


The fleet:  

Spoiler

#93 blade_mercurial

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 02:17 PM

Ibby

  Elusiveness
  Sensor Jammer

  Stealth

Luke

Prototype

Prototype

Total: 99 points

 

You could put DTF on Luke, but the init is important.  You could also change the 2 x Proto to 1 x ORS w/ APL, Nav + IA... that might be the better way to do it actually.

 

Point of the build is to block with the prototypes, denying actions.  As such, they don't have a focus to spend for their attack.  By taking Luke, you dont' give them a good option to shoot at.  The prototypes aren't putting out the hurt and are hard to hit, Luke is defensive to begin with, and Ibby is all jacked up on D.  

 

Since you denied your opponent an action, elusiveness takes away .5 hits.  Meanwhile, sensor jammer takes away a full hit.  So the most they'll have is 2 hits, which would be if they rolled 3 (12.5%) and then rerolled a hit (6.25% overall).  Meanwhile, you have two dice, one of which you can reroll, giving you a 14% chance to natively roll 2 evades, and a 47% to roll 1, but then Ibby's reroll... so you have a 32% chance of rolling 2 evades.  You can check out the "good ibby builds" thread for the full math, but it came out to be soemthing along the lines of .05 damage per attack against her.  And I think it went up to like .3 damage with a focus.  Based on 3 attack dice.

Well that's not bad, but still, the best part of elusiveness here isn't the fact that it mitigates damage, but provides the stress to enable Ib's ability.  Has anyone actually used this, however?  Regardless, I agree that the ORS is probably better (IA & Nav just makes it so much more reliable for bumping than 2 proto a-wings). 


Edited by blade_mercurial, 11 February 2014 - 02:17 PM.


#94 Khyros

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 02:37 PM

I'm planning on using it tonight.  The theory craft on it shows that it should be great.  The problem I see with bringing the ORS is that it becomes the easy primary target.  It's easy to take out, and then there's no more action denial going on.  You could also downgrade Luke to a Rookie (or better yet, a 3rd proto w/ stealth), and then add stealth devices to both A wings... That would be cool too.  The rookie would be the primary target, but losing him wouldn't really affect the build.  I think Luke w/ 2 As might be the sweet spot balance between survivability and killing power though.


The fleet:  

Spoiler

#95 Rakky Wistol

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 03:09 PM

Phantoms with a load up on upgrades are going to be equally or moreso annoying to take out... depending on what they do with stealth... they have Elite, Systems, Crew, Mod, Evade, and cloak.  Not that this is probably a good idea... but annoying... and ewings will be the same for the rebels.  



#96 DraconPyrothayan

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 03:29 PM

The fleet in question is 3x Outer Rim Smuggler + Intelligence Agent + Navigator + APL

Whenever I see this fleet I am intrigued but always wonder about the usefulness of the Navi and IA. Three YTs are pretty much able to block up the middle of the board and will score hits for the APTS even without the ability to change your move. And if you are planning to Rugby up a swarm, how much ability will you have to change your moves even if you want to? Will there be space? I suppose I should run it and find out, although I only have access to 2 YTs for my regular game. Maybe back them up with an HLC blue. Of if I thought I could get away without the Navi and IA I could run two Rookies. 

 

The Navigator and Intelligence Agent combine into giving you, essentially, a Body-Slam.

You know where they're going, and you can position yourself in its path, turning a possible collision into a guarantee.

 

This particular fleet wants Asteroids to be far and few between, possibly as a boarder to keep the foe from escaping. 3 giant homing asteroids is enough to seriously screw with your opponent's fleet anyway.

 

Having run a variation of this fleet myself (I only have 2 Falcons at my disposal :/ ), I got lots of use out of Intel Agent + Navigator, as it took the guesswork out of my maneuvers. I only needed to choose the bearing, and decide on the speed after learning more later on!

 

Moreover, in the lousy cases where a collision was prevented (Boo! Hiss!), I still had all of my actions available to me from previous turns (TL first, and Focuses after I've picked a target) and they had none of theirs (from colliding with me), giving me a distinct attack advantage!



#97 That One Guy

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 09:25 PM

 

I've only found one good use for Deadeye:  Green w\ Deadeye + Assault Missile.  For 25 points he's an opening round, entire swarm hitting, salvo.  

 

The problem with this is it still takes 2 rounds to fire the missile and statistically speaking, the number of hits generated using deadeye to keep the target lock for re-rolls is not significantly greater than spending the target lock and using the focus token (which is what you'd have to do without deadeye).

 

Dude…. the whole point of Deadeye is so that you don't have to have a TL in the first place. You know, for instance if you were a low PS pilot who had to fly up first and had no one in range of your target lock.



#98 Stone37

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 09:38 PM

 

I've only found one good use for Deadeye:  Green w\ Deadeye + Assault Missile.  For 25 points he's an opening round, entire swarm hitting, salvo.  

 

The problem with this is it still takes 2 rounds to fire the missile and statistically speaking, the number of hits generated using deadeye to keep the target lock for re-rolls is not significantly greater than spending the target lock and using the focus token (which is what you'd have to do without deadeye).

It does not take two rounds to fire.  That's the point of Deadeye, you can spend a Focus instead of a target lock to fire the missile.

 

Round 1, Green moves 5 straight and takes a focus.  Then, spends the focus during the attack round to fire the missile at a ship unlucky enough to end up in range.  If all goes well, splash damage on a few adjacent ships occurs.  



#99 Arthur Volts

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 09:43 PM

Not sure why Tie Advanced can't have tech items.

I really want them to be useful. Even less useful since the Tie Bomber came out.



#100 Khyros

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 06:16 AM

So, after running the above Ibby list, I've come to love sensor jammer.  Elusiveness was good too, especially on the crits as sensor jammer only works on hits.  The first game took him about 4 3 attack shots to strip stealth, and then the rest of the game he only did 2 more damage to her (while only killing 1 other A wing and not damaging anything else).  

 

The second game was a bit more successful - I lost stealth on the first attack to a TIE at R3 through an asteroid.  He rolled 2 hits, Sensor jammer got rid of one, and elusiveness failed on the second one, so I rolled my 4 evade dice, focus focus focus blank... rerolled the blank for a ... focus.  Too bad I didn't have a focus =/.  This time he focused on Luke first, and managed to take Luke and an A wing out, But then just couldn't touch Ibby.  Since he was a higher PS, he spent most of his turns barrel rolling to get out of arc, but that meant that he didn't have a focus, and couldn't get any hits through.  Meanwhile, when I got a hit (with a TL+F mind you) he would naturally roll 3+ evades, so it took a very long time for Ibby and an A wing to kill him off, but there was no chance that he was going to kill Ibby.  


The fleet:  

Spoiler




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