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Upgrades/Pilots that we never use...Convince us we are wrong


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#41 That One Guy

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 05:46 PM

I think Dead Eye works best on low PS guys who still need to use Target Lock to fire ordinance. Most people worth their rations know how to slow-play out of the alpha strike of low-mid range ordinance users like Gamma Squadrons or Rookie Pilots. Dead Eye allows you to move up aggressively, but still use your ordinance in the first round of combat. Without the focus you may not do as much damage (or at least 'your chances aren't as good at high-damage' rounds might be a better wording) but it's better than getting scratched out by some higher PS jerk before you even get the damn things off at all...


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#42 That One Guy

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 05:47 PM

 

 

So  I was thinking that some of us may never use certain upgrades or pilots because we just don't see the point or don't think they are worth the points for what they do. So this is a thread to get some help on any pilot/upgrade that we don't see the value of. Maybe someone out there has had great success using it and can share the benefit of their experience. Or maybe the community will confirm that our assessment of a Pilot/upgrade was dead on and no one ever uses it.

 

I'll start with Sensor Jammers. I think 4 pts  for the ability to turn a hit into an eyeball is kind of a bit too much to justify. Its likely that your opponent has a focus, since it seems to be the default action most of us take, or they have a TL, which lets them re-roll that eyeball with a 50/50 chance of getting another hit, or even worse a crit. It seems to be a highly situational upgrade. What am I missing? Have you found it to be worth the points?

It also depends on the individual pilot skills in play. When it comes to modifying dice, if both attacker and defender are modifying the same roll (as opposed to just their own) the higher pilot skill modifies first. So for instance, if Ten Numb is being firing upon by Captain Jonus, then the B-Wing would alter the die to a focus. Jonus could then modify it back with his token or Marksmanship. If someone like Soontir Fel fired on Ten Numb, then Fel would have to try to modify his dice just to break even (thus still using his token if he has one, but to less effect. and Fel just depleted his tokens, making him a sweeter target for the rebel player in the rest of the combat this round). So yes. Extremely useful.

 

 

It has nothing to do with PS.

 

Defender always modifies Attack dice first. Attacker always modifies Defense dice first

 

Really? Hmm.



#43 jedi moose

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 05:47 PM

 

 

 

 

Arvel and fel's wrath=pointless

Agreed. Had to use Fel's Wrath once in a randomly generated list. It did not go well.

 

Next time you go up against a Falcon, or a ship with a turret, give Fel's Wrath another go.  This is a high SP pilot's worst nightmare.  Fel's job is to take down a 50 point+ ship for 23 points.  

Again, if you keep running into things with Arvel, instead of things running into you, this is operator's error, not a bad pilot.  The A-wing in general is an advanced ship and one has to be VERY good at guessing the moves of others to play it well.

 

I don't think you understand what Fels Wrath does because that matchup goes something like this:

 

Fels Wrath Flies straight at Han. Han shoots first and destroys Fels Wrath. FW shoots and lands a couple hits on Han and then FW is destroyed and leaves the board. Round ends.  Han searches for his next target with most of his shields in tact.

 

FW's ability is a one time use thing when he is already dead. I fail to see how it is the bane of Han Solo

 

Again... this is not how to use Fels...

You play him like any other Tie-I.  Use his agility to keep him safe, but when the time comes and the opportunity presents itself to take down a big ship, you strike!  And you strike KNOWING you'll get your hits in, regardless of how many hits are landed on Fels.

 

Your strategy assumes though that his agility will keep him safe while you slow chip away from the falcon's 13 health. There is a very good chance that even at range 3 han can destroy fel in 1 or two rounds, before his health get's low enough for Fel to take him out. So unless you hide fel on the opposite side of the board and wait for the falcon to be on itrs death bed, I don't see it working the way you want all that often.

And what's more, in a tournament (or really in any  game i play, even casual) you don't know what your opponent is bringing to the table and therefore if your strategyy will work on a big ship which they may not use. Sorry, I still don't see the value of Fels Wrath



#44 That One Guy

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 05:56 PM

Your strategy assumes though that his agility will keep him safe while you slow chip away from the falcon's 13 health. 

Well yeah. That's how you fly ANY interceptor. And if the Imperial is focus firing the YT down like they're supposed to, then it won't be so slow. The average TIE swarm (6-8 ships) or Interceptor squad (2-3 ships) can be throwing anywhere from 6-14 attack dice at a 1-evade ship. Even if you roll an evade every single time you're still stopping 1/4 or less of the damage. In fact, in any game I've played where the opponent used a YT and I killed it, it was destroyed on the second or third round it was fired upon.



#45 PenguinBonaparte

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 05:59 PM

Well I'm going to be using Night Beast or Winged Gundark in a 7-tie at a tourney on Sunday, mainly because I've never used either. Wanted to put both in but that would make me 100 pts, which would stink for a swarm and there's no way I can drop Backstabber.



#46 Rodent Mastermind

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 05:59 PM

Really? Hmm.

 
Yep
 

Rulebook P11:  If the attacker and defender both have abilities that can modify attack dice, the defender resolves all of his abilities before the attacker.


Rulebook P12: If the attacker and defender both have abilities that can modify defense dice, the attacker resolves all of his abilities before the defender.


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#47 Stone37

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 06:05 PM

Your strategy assumes though that his agility will keep him safe while you slow chip away from the falcon's 13 health. There is a very good chance that even at range 3 han can destroy fel in 1 or two rounds, before his health get's low enough for Fel to take him out. So unless you hide fel on the opposite side of the board and wait for the falcon to be on itrs death bed, I don't see it working the way you want all that often.

 

And what's more, in a tournament (or really in any  game i play, even casual) you don't know what your opponent is bringing to the table and therefore if your strategyy will work on a big ship which they may not use. Sorry, I still don't see the value of Fels Wrath

 

You know, there is OTHER ways to play this game.  100 point tournament rules is only one way.  I play 160 point team games with friends.  Fels fits into this type of game.



#48 Rakky Wistol

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 06:24 PM

 

I remember seeing an entire video that was devoted to saying how Expose was an awful waste of 4 points. I'm extremely tempted to agree, since the only craft I'd use it on would be Darth Vader, since he has two actions anyway, or Green Squadron Pilots. The problem is that Vader is already an expensive piece on the board and if I'm going to spend an action to make an A-Wing into an X-Wing for a turn I don't see how that's worth 4 entire points and my action.

 

So my challenge is how do you make Expose worth the cost of investment? Perhaps with Han Solo? Chewbacca? A Moldy Crow?

I remember seeing a post about someone using it on Chewie, he wanted to name the squad after one of Kashyyyk's moons since Chewie was exposing himself all over the place. That would mean he had no defense dice, but pack quite a punch.  Maybe he had someone feeding him extra actions ( Lando maybe?) so he could take an evade.

 

Full MOON Kashyyk.



#49 That One Guy

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 06:52 PM

 

Really? Hmm.

 
Yep
 

Rulebook P11:  If the attacker and defender both have abilities that can modify attack dice, the defender resolves all of his abilities before the attacker.


Rulebook P12: If the attacker and defender both have abilities that can modify defense dice, the attacker resolves all of his abilities before the defender.

 

Awesome, thanks. My above example was told to me by my usual opponent while he held the book. He must have given up looking for the answer and just substituted his own judgement.

 

Gonna have to set his arse straight again. I guess that means I've been right on all rulings debates after all...


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#50 jedi moose

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 07:27 PM

 

Your strategy assumes though that his agility will keep him safe while you slow chip away from the falcon's 13 health. 

Well yeah. That's how you fly ANY interceptor. And if the Imperial is focus firing the YT down like they're supposed to, then it won't be so slow. The average TIE swarm (6-8 ships) or Interceptor squad (2-3 ships) can be throwing anywhere from 6-14 attack dice at a 1-evade ship. Even if you roll an evade every single time you're still stopping 1/4 or less of the damage. In fact, in any game I've played where the opponent used a YT and I killed it, it was destroyed on the second or third round it was fired upon.

 

Yes that is how you try to fly interceptors. But it's not completely up to you as the other player using the falcon or one of his other ships on the board isn't going to just roll over and let you stay at range 3 taking shots at him. The point was that this strategy requires you to keep 1 particular ship (FW) alive long enough to get the final shot on a ship like the Falcon. That is not as easy as it sounds without flying FW extremely conservatively.

 

And I would argue that if the YT is getting taken out that fast, you either aren't flying it right, are incredibly unlucky, and/or you've taken out 2-3 of the enemy ships before you went down, one of them possibly being Fels Wrath before his ability was ready to let you finish of the Falcon in the fashion that Stone37 suggests. 

 

 

Your strategy assumes though that his agility will keep him safe while you slow chip away from the falcon's 13 health. There is a very good chance that even at range 3 han can destroy fel in 1 or two rounds, before his health get's low enough for Fel to take him out. So unless you hide fel on the opposite side of the board and wait for the falcon to be on itrs death bed, I don't see it working the way you want all that often.

 

And what's more, in a tournament (or really in any  game i play, even casual) you don't know what your opponent is bringing to the table and therefore if your strategyy will work on a big ship which they may not use. Sorry, I still don't see the value of Fels Wrath

 

You know, there is OTHER ways to play this game.  100 point tournament rules is only one way.  I play 160 point team games with friends.  Fels fits into this type of game.

 

Of course there are. I wasn't trying to offend or imply that their is only one way to play. Personally I don't play in tournaments, only with  friends. My point was that no matter the format of the game, I think the vast majority of the players would agree that getting to change your build once you see what the other team is using is not fair. "O I see you are using the falcon, so I'm going to change my build to include 3 bombers with Cluster Missiles" is just not a fair way to play. So FW in your suggestion may be useful in certain situations and against certain ships, but most of us play in a way that we wouldn't be able to count on those situations/ships being used by our opponent. If that's how you play, that's fine. But it isn't the way most of us play.

 

On a side note, I could see it being fun to play a game where you and your opponent choose 50 pts worth of ships, reveal and then pick the next 50 points and reveal, back and forth so as to counter each others ships.



#51 Audio Weasel

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 07:36 PM


 

On a side note, I could see it being fun to play a game where you and your opponent choose 50 pts worth of ships, reveal and then pick the next 50 points and reveal, back and forth so as to counter each others ships.

 

I could see this totally being a good time


Current Fleet:

Rebel: 4 A-Wings, 4 B-Wings, 2 HWK-290's, 3 YT-1300s, 4 X-Wings, 2 Y-Wing

Imperial:  3 Lambda Shuttles,  2 Firespray-31's, 3 Tie Advanced, 4 Tie Bombers, 6 Tie Fighters, 2 Tie Interceptors,   2 Imperials Aces, 

On Pre-order:1 Tantive IV, 1 Rebel Transport, 4 Z-95, 4 TIE Phantom, 4 TIE Defender, 4 E-Wing


#52 That One Guy

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 11:07 AM

Yes that is how you try to fly interceptors. But it's not completely up to you as the other player using the falcon or one of his other ships on the board isn't going to just roll over and let you stay at range 3 taking shots at him. The point was that this strategy requires you to keep 1 particular ship (FW) alive long enough to get the final shot on a ship like the Falcon. That is not as easy as it sounds without flying FW extremely conservatively.

 

And I would argue that if the YT is getting taken out that fast, you either aren't flying it right, are incredibly unlucky, and/or you've taken out 2-3 of the enemy ships before you went down, one of them possibly being Fels Wrath before his ability was ready to let you finish of the Falcon in the fashion that Stone37 suggests. 

One: I don't stay at range 3. I like to really get up in there.

 

Two: It's not like I'm saying that I'm specifically trying to save the last shot for Fel's Wrath.

 

Three: I am not losing my falcon too early because I don't fly it. At all. I don't fly rebels. I do, however, know a lot of good countermeasures for it; and I employ them to deadly effect. A lot. Doesn't always work, but I've killed them twice as often as lost to them, so I like to think I know what I'm talking about to some degree.

 

Also, I can't help but feel you're assuming some things about the Falcon, like it should be able to just kill everything each turn. Well you know what? Gunner doesn't do you jack squat if your opponent… lets you hit them. Yeah. I said it. See, something I do pretty often is this: get fired at by the Falcon, maybe it will roll some hits, 2-3. I usually have a token to evade with. But since hey, I'm rolling at least 3 evade dice (or more if I'm at range 3 or Stealth Device is attached) and i can cancel everything but one… and especially at range 1-2…. I'll just take the 1. Why give the opponent the chance to Gunner or Luke Gunner me? Bugger that, the known 1 is better than the next roll which might be 2 hits and a crit. Plus it usually still leaves me with an evade token for the rest of the round. And yeah, I use this strategy with any ship, not just Fel's Wrath/Interceptors. If anything it's better to do that way because not only are you taking minimal damage, but you're completely neutering the opponents build.

 

Lastly, Fel's Wrath is never the lynchpin of a build He's just a good ship to throw in there. Not only for his ability but also because in the heat of battle your opponent (or heh, at least my opponent) tends to forget that's him. He's not always actively aware of who is who or what they can do even though he knows the cards just because his mind is full of maneuvers and tokens and where he thinks I'll be and if he should Kiogran and bla bla bla. In fact, the last match I won was one like this. Soontril Fel (2 HP) and Fel's Wrath (2 HP) w/ -1 Agility crit vs. Luke with 2 HP. Soontir Fel was at extreme range 3 from Luke, but Luke and FW were jousting each other at range 1 just a millimeter or two away and passing on each other's right.

 

Me: "Well, looks like we'll have range 1 shots on each other now."

Opponent: "Pff, not if I destroy you first. You only get 2 evade dice. Then it will just be him and Soontir."

Me: "True, but I still get to fire. it's Wrath."

Opponent: "…….. Well F@#$."

 

So yeah. The ship is average, true. But making your opponent plan two turns ahead and forget the fact that he gets to fire anyway can be worth quite a bit. (Though Ironically it didn't matter because Soontir Fel rolled 3 hits on his range 3 attack and Luke failed to evade anything.)


Edited by That One Guy, 08 February 2014 - 11:07 AM.


#53 rwhiffen

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 08:07 PM

My list of cards that I almost never see played:

 

R5-D8

R5-K6

Daredevil

Expose

Autoblaster

Saboteur

 

Although there are others that are uncommon (Weapons Engineer, Navigator, Dead Eye, etc), those six are the ones that I truly almost never see in builds.

 

I ran Daredevil on Vader with an Engine Upgrade and it was very impressive.  Because it's a separate action, you can boost and hard 1 in the same turn (or barrel roll), and moving at 9, made him practically untouchable.  Who cares if you only roll two attack dice if you're never catching return fire.  

 

I do have a hard time imagining another pilot that it would be good on however, so it does belong on this list in general.

 

Rich


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#54 Audio Weasel

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 08:09 PM

 

My list of cards that I almost never see played:

 

R5-D8

R5-K6

Daredevil

Expose

Autoblaster

Saboteur

 

Although there are others that are uncommon (Weapons Engineer, Navigator, Dead Eye, etc), those six are the ones that I truly almost never see in builds.

 

I ran Daredevil on Vader with an Engine Upgrade and it was very impressive.  Because it's a separate action, you can boost and hard 1 in the same turn (or barrel roll), and moving at 9, made him practically untouchable.  Who cares if you only roll two attack dice if you're never catching return fire.  

 

I do have a hard time imagining another pilot that it would be good on however, so it does belong on this list in general.

 

Rich

 

I've used it on Tycho and Fel to great effect.


Current Fleet:

Rebel: 4 A-Wings, 4 B-Wings, 2 HWK-290's, 3 YT-1300s, 4 X-Wings, 2 Y-Wing

Imperial:  3 Lambda Shuttles,  2 Firespray-31's, 3 Tie Advanced, 4 Tie Bombers, 6 Tie Fighters, 2 Tie Interceptors,   2 Imperials Aces, 

On Pre-order:1 Tantive IV, 1 Rebel Transport, 4 Z-95, 4 TIE Phantom, 4 TIE Defender, 4 E-Wing


#55 jedi moose

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 10:13 PM

 

stuff

That one guy said:

Stuff in response to Jedi Moose's stuff

 

First of all, when i said "you", i didn't mean you specifically. I meant anyone flying the Falcon. Sorry if that seemed like a personal attack.

 

Second, I personally don't like the YT with a gunner. I agree with you about it's use and prefer to make my first shot count. There are  better ways to build the YT IMO. PTL, Weapons Engineer, MF Title, and maybe nien Numb is one of my favorite ways to fly it. You get TL's that will last for 2 turns, plus at least 1 focus or evade every round, some rounds you will have a leftover TL + focus and evade. And as far as flying the YT, since you don't need to worry about lining up shots, you fly it behind other ships, out of their arcs, and as erratically as possible to keep your opponent guessing and avoid damage from multiple ships each round while at the same time dropping 3-4 attack  which with the TL's Focus usually net multiple hits on a ship every round. Personally, every time I fly the falcon, it is always one of the last ships left on the board. I've never lost it in just a couple turns.

 

And finally, the falcon is not the only ship on my team. I always have  2 others that are working on picking apart the opponent as well or running interference for the falcon. So the YT is a serious threat that my opponent can't ignore, but he can't be so focused on the YT that he ignores the other ships either. I try to keep the falcon and my other ships on separate areas of the board so my opponent either has to split up his swarm, or deal with the shots from behind while he focuses on one or the other.

 

As for Fel, I don't think his ability is absolutely useless or will never ever be helpful, but for 2 points less i could take a Saber with no ability but with EPT, which is much more valuable on an int than Fel's ability ever will be...IMO. For 2 points more, I can take Turd Ferguson who has a much better ability and an EPT. And with Aces coming out soon, I really can't think of any time where Fels ability makes him valuable enough to take him over any of the other options.

 

If you like him though, use him. I'm just saying that I don't really see the value. Happy gaming.


Edited by jedi moose, 08 February 2014 - 10:17 PM.

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#56 Audio Weasel

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 10:15 PM

Ok, I have to admit "Turd Ferguson" made me actually LOL

 

 

I need sleep


Edited by Audio Weasel, 08 February 2014 - 10:15 PM.

Current Fleet:

Rebel: 4 A-Wings, 4 B-Wings, 2 HWK-290's, 3 YT-1300s, 4 X-Wings, 2 Y-Wing

Imperial:  3 Lambda Shuttles,  2 Firespray-31's, 3 Tie Advanced, 4 Tie Bombers, 6 Tie Fighters, 2 Tie Interceptors,   2 Imperials Aces, 

On Pre-order:1 Tantive IV, 1 Rebel Transport, 4 Z-95, 4 TIE Phantom, 4 TIE Defender, 4 E-Wing


#57 cubby09

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 07:23 AM

Ok, I have to admit "Turd Ferguson" made me actually LOL

 

 

I need sleep

Most people dont get the reference ;)


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"I can hold it.....no, I'm alrigh......agghhh!" 

-The Death of Porkins

Imperial 1 Tie advanced, 1interceptor, 1 bomber, 1 firespray, 2 Lambda, 7 ties, 2 aces

Rebel 4 x-wings, 2 y-wings, 3 b-wing, 1 HWK, 2 Falcons, 3 A-wing


#58 redxavier

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 12:00 PM

Having just purchased the Firespray at last, I've thought about giving Expose a go. On first glance, it would appear to go best on a high skill pilot and given that the Falcon can't really avoid getting hit anyway, putting in on Han+Gunner sounds like it could be interesting in a high risk, high reward way (and with some diligence about when in the game to use it).


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Rebels: 4x X-wings, 4x Y-wings, 2x A-wings, 1x B-wing, YT1300 (just missing the HWK90)

Imperials: Firespray, Lambda Shuttle, 8x TIE Fighters, 2x TIE Bombers, 1x TIE Advanced, 1x TIE Interceptor

 

On preorder: 2x Rebel Transports, 2x Tantive IV, 2x Imperial Aces


#59 DraconPyrothayan

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 12:27 PM

Having just purchased the Firespray at last, I've thought about giving Expose a go. On first glance, it would appear to go best on a high skill pilot and given that the Falcon can't really avoid getting hit anyway, putting in on Han+Gunner sounds like it could be interesting in a high risk, high reward way (and with some diligence about when in the game to use it).

Expose is, mathematically, not good. Focusing will give you more damage, on average. Alongside Gunner, that means Marksmanship or Recon Specialist to boost both attacks.

Without Gunner, wait for Opportunist. It is slightly less controllable (can't use against someone with a Focus or Evade token), and stresses you, but doesn't take your action for the turn or lower your Agility for the turn. It can also be used with Secondary Weapons, but only for 1 attack per turn.



#60 executor

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 12:48 PM

Arvel and fel's wrath=pointless

 

i wouldn't go as far as to say pointless, but definitely very situational


Current Fleet

Rebellion: 4 X-wings, 4 Y-wings, 5 A-wings, 3 B-wings, 1 HWK-290, 2 YT-1300's

Empire: 8 Tie Fighters, 2 Tie Advanced, 9 Tie Interceptors, 3 Tie Bombers, 1 Lambda Shuttle, 3 Firespray 31's





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