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Keyhole Clarification


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#1 worshadar

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 03:46 PM

This may need official clarification:  When cards are trashed by Keyhole's ability, do they go to the archives faceup or facedown?

 

Why this matters:  2 scenarios were already thought of by fellow players: 

  1. A corp installs or retrieves a card from archives with Interns or Archives Memories or similar abilities.  Will the runner know which card was retrieved?
  2. Record Reconstructor specifies it works on faceup cards only

Why there is confusion:

  •  The runner is not accessing the card before trashing.
  •  Cards that are exposed via Infiltration or similar effects can still be trashed facedown unless I am mistaken.

Edited by worshadar, 05 February 2014 - 03:47 PM.


#2 CommissarFeesh

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 04:33 PM

If a card was facedown when trashed, then it remains facedown in Archives (so your Infiltrated example applies here).

I believe that a Keyholed card will go to Archives face-down, because as you point out it's not being Accessed when trashed. I think it's worth submitting to Lukas though.
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#3 etherial

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 09:09 AM

It has been submitted to Lukas and we await his answer.


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#4 Khouri

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 04:20 PM

Incidentally how do people run the resolution of this card: does the corp get to see the cards you looked at and do the restrictions of access only one card at a time still apply in this case?

 

I run with looks at 3 choose one, all done in front of the Corp but wondered if this was strictly necessary.



#5 CommissarFeesh

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 04:25 PM

Well, it doesn't say reveal, so I've always done it that it's blind to the Corp but the Corp player obviously gets to see what goes to Archives. *shrug*

#6 etherial

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 08:38 AM

Incidentally how do people run the resolution of this card: does the corp get to see the cards you looked at and do the restrictions of access only one card at a time still apply in this case?

 

I run with looks at 3 choose one, all done in front of the Corp but wondered if this was strictly necessary.

 

"Look at 3 and trash one" seems pretty obvious for me. The cards are not being Accessed, so all "on-Access rules" do not apply. The Corp does not get to look at the cards being looked at by the Runner (same as with Deep Thought).



#7 Grimwalker

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 02:18 PM

I can't imagine that there is any reason to put the card in archives face down. This is a circumstance which didn't exist when the core set rules were written.

 

The runner knows what card it is, necessarily. The corp knows what card it is, because they can look at archives at any time. So there's no hidden information to be preserved by putting it face down.

Now, I *could* see that the runner might not want to reveal what cards they buried back in R&D. Maybe if you find two Enigmas and a Bastion--if you trash the Bastion, you might be telegraphing that you have a Yog in hand but not a Corroder. By keeping the other two face down, you don't let the corp second guess what scared you less than the card you trashed.


Edited by Grimwalker, 11 February 2014 - 02:18 PM.


#8 CommissarFeesh

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 04:24 PM

The runner knows what card it is, necessarily. The corp knows what card it is, because they can look at archives at any time. So there's no hidden information to be preserved by putting it face down.


The OP gave an example - if you Archived Memories, Interns or Jackson one or more cards out of Archives, then it matters if the Keyhole cards were face down, because then the runner doesn't know what cards you pulled back out.

EDIT: And Record Reconstructor.

Edited by CommissarFeesh, 11 February 2014 - 04:24 PM.


#9 Grimwalker

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 08:44 AM

I would say that the scope of the core rules is not ambiguous on its original meaning:
1) if the card is hidden to the runner at the time it's trashed or discarded: face down.
2) if the card is revealed to the runner at the time it's trashed: face up.
 

I don't think you can make a solid case either way because it's not like the rules say "only when accessing does the runner trash face up." This situation just plain doesn't exist in the original rules, because the only time a runner would see a card is if it had been rezzed or accessed. The ambiguity is exactly equal for both interpretations, until Lukas rules.



#10 CommissarFeesh

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 09:46 AM

I agree that it's ambiguous. I personally interpreted it the other way, but the argument of 'the runner knowing what it is at time of trash so it should be faceup' has merit. I could see it going either way tbh, though I'm starting to suspect the official ruling will in fact be faceup.

#11 CommissarFeesh

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 12:09 PM

Official answer has been posted on BGG - the card goes faceup.


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#12 frybender

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 02:40 PM

I know the ruling was specific to Keyhole but does that mean that when you expose a face down card and the corp later trashes that card without rezing it it goes into the archives face up?



#13 etherial

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 03:26 PM

I know the ruling was specific to Keyhole but does that mean that when you expose a face down card and the corp later trashes that card without rezing it it goes into the archives face up?

No. The difference is that the Runner is Trashing it with Keyhole. Noise and your scenario, by comparison, both have the card Trashed by the Corp.



#14 frybender

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 04:08 PM

 

I know the ruling was specific to Keyhole but does that mean that when you expose a face down card and the corp later trashes that card without rezing it it goes into the archives face up?

No. The difference is that the Runner is Trashing it with Keyhole. Noise and your scenario, by comparison, both have the card Trashed by the Corp.

 

That makes sense



#15 Grimwalker

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 01:06 PM

Keyhole got played a bunch last night, we kept the trashed card face up and the shuffled cards hidden from the Corp; worked just fine.






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