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Control of Captured hero in Dol Guldur


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#1 Tracker1

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 04:24 AM

Decided to beat myself up on NM EfDG.
I was playing mono spirit deck, and wondered if Pelagrir Shipwirght would have 2 or 3 willpower, since it is based on the number of heroes you control.

Do you still control the captured hero in this Scenario?

I assumed yes, since scenario cards do not say that you lose control, but it seems thematically odd that you control a captured hero.

Thoughts?
'At last' said Aragorn 'Here are the tracks that we seek!'

#2 booored

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 04:39 AM

Hmm... I'll check.. but I'm pretty sure it is considered out of play.. so no.. it would be 2.
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#3 booored

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 04:48 AM

you know.. I can not find any specific rules on this.. probably needs a FAQ.. my intuition is saying no.. it should be out of play.. but technically all the quest cards says is that it can not do things.. it doesn't mention out of play at all, there is nothing in the FAQ. So rules lawyer says: Yes you still would count a 3rd spirit hero for Shipwright.

Yet you do turn the card upside down.. a state also not in the rules.. so we do not know. Though Eagle's of Misty Mountains uses this state as well, and I defiantly consider back side up cards as out of play in this case. Though they enter that state as they leave play, the card also dose not specify that they are out of play.

Probably needs a FAQ, but I would call the captured card as out of play.

Edited by booored, 05 February 2014 - 04:49 AM.

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#4 monkeyrama

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 05:25 AM

This is a bit tricky. With the Eagle of the Misty Mountains, the difference is that the face-down card is counted as an attachment, with no effect except to trigger the Eagle's effect - I assume the card loses all it's previous status and abilities, since this was clarified somewhere with regard to the Nameless things in Foundations of Stone. So for the Eagle the card remains in play, but changes what it counts as.

 

This makes the situation with the Hero in Escape from Dol Guldur a slightly different situation. Since cards can lose abilities etc. it doesn't really follow, to me, that it counts as out of play. The quest card makes no mention of losing control, or changing control, it just specifies:

 

'Randomly select 1 hero card (among all the heroes controlled by the players) and turn it facedown. The hero is now considered a "prisoner", cannot be used, cannot be damaged, and does not collect resources, until it is "rescued" (as instructed by card effects) later in this quest.'

 

So technically this is still a controlled, but essentially unusable card, unless counting the hero towards the Pelargir Shipright is the equivalent of 'using' the hero. 

 

Not sure I really answered it, but it seems that the hero is not considered outside your control in game terms.



#5 booored

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 05:30 AM

Yeah, I tend to agree. Though it "feels" wrong to me. In a technical way there seams to be no rules to force it as out of play.. but that defiantly feels correct to me to think of it as out of play.

 

I do not believe it is that far a stretch to think at the early conception of this game when all the interacting rules didn't exist that the purpose was to remove it form play.. but t wasn't until recently that the rules became complex enough to require more a accurate definition.


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#6 monkeyrama

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 05:32 AM

Yeah, some early quests had very hazy wording. What does 'use' mean! Now I think they would specify that the hero counts as 'out of play'. At least the game is refining its keywords and definitions. 



#7 booored

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 05:34 AM

lol


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#8 alogos

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 06:55 AM

Q: I want to play Mithrandir Counsil. My captured hero in Dol Guldur is of lore sphere. Does he count as a hero under my control? Can i draw 1 card by him?

A: I've gotten this question a few times. The "prisoner" hero is definitely still in play. That becomes more important in the nightmare mode. In normal play, the two most important things about "the prisoner" are: 1. that hero is turned facedown, and 2. that hero "cannot be used." Together, this means the "prisoner" cannot contribute its card type, sphere, stats, traits, keywords, abilities, anything other than its uniqueness (i.e. I cannot play an ally version of the "prisoner" hero). So, no additional card draw for Mithrandir's Advice and does not count toward the number of Dwarf characters you control, etc. You could not attach anything to that hero either, because that would be using it's hero card type.

 

http://community.fan...ol/#entry960757

 

It's in page 2 now.



#9 booored

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 07:10 AM

What a crazy response.. It is still in play.. but everything on the card returns null, including all target conditions.. but uniqueness still counts... ???!

 

Still it all makes sense really. It "is" out of play for all intense and purposes.. but it makes logical sense in this quest to retain uniqueness, and by the rules "out of play" would remove that. Thus the special state.

 

This should defiantly be in the FAQ.

 

the "prisoner" cannot contribute its card type, sphere, stats, traits, keywords, abilities, anything other than its uniqueness

 

So, sphere dose not contribute.. so the Shipwirght == 2will


Edited by booored, 05 February 2014 - 07:30 AM.

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#10 Tracker1

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 08:06 AM

 

the "prisoner" cannot contribute its card type, sphere, stats, traits, keywords, abilities, anything other than its uniqueness

 
So, sphere dose not contribute.. so the Shipwirght == 2will

Okay, so i guess that's the answer. It should be in the FAQ.
'At last' said Aragorn 'Here are the tracks that we seek!'

#11 booored

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 09:10 AM

until it is in a official FAQ you can only use the literal rules. In this game as it is co-op it is not that important but in card games in general you can not go to a comp and say "blah blah in this thread posted this" and expect a judge to accept that. If it aint written officially in the FAQ all we have is the card text and I think we all know what the literal interpretation is.. so it is up to you.


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