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Too late for Beta....tell me about it


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#1 Roy Stone

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 04:31 PM

This is a simple topic.

 

I'm too late for the beta but would like to know how Dark Heresy 2nd Edition is looking without having to read through loads of other topics.

 

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#2 Vorzakk

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 07:38 PM

The people who were mad that the first beta was incompatible with earlier lines are now happy.  The people who were happy that the first beta went in new directions are now mad. 


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#3 Tom Cruise

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 10:33 PM

Like Only War with few major rules changes, really. There's some more investigation focused content but it's still largely Only War with a fresh coat of paint. Up to you if that's a good thing or not.



#4 Cymbel

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 11:40 PM

It was brought from a brand new system practically to a redone Only War, bringing the post-BC updated rules with their benefits and problems to DH. Including the requistion system of RT on, though rather harder and oversimplified at points.

 

The good news is that it is compatible with older material, though the farther you go back, the less works. The bad news is that systems designed for the more high power games have their own issues when brought down to the more nitty gritty level of DH (where items aren't given out as easily).


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#5 Cail

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 01:26 AM

It's basically good overall, but it feels unfinished. It would have been nice to see some of the things used in the original beta refined to be more compatible. The influence system for requisitions is probably the biggest ongoing point on contention amongst the forum users.

As a combat system its perfectly playable, however much of the 'roleplaying' elements are now dealt with in a very mechanical sense "Roll investigation/influence to see if you can find rumours in a bar'. This kind of thing is a very common trend in newer RPG lines though. Personally I am not a fan of this part, but its nothing that can't be over-ruled by a GM.


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#6 Tom Cruise

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 01:57 AM

The issue comes from developers wanting to have hard rules to how the non-combat portions of things go, but not dedicating any real time to them. You can have really compelling, well defined rules for social interaction and investigation, but FFG aren't up to the task here, evidently. They'd rather focus on combat, which is understandable, if disappointing.


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#7 Cymbel

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 02:28 AM

The kicker is, they sorta do have the time to focus on non-combat more, which they did do well in some cases. Like, the character creation system seems a great compromise between doing a quick-ish way of making a PC, easy to expand with new roles, worlds and backgrounds which can make some cool concepts and let you still be X, but be good at Y finally. Also, the character creation document takes the best bits from DH 1 (including the mementos) and then added in the superstitions, which is great.

 

As far as influence goes? Trying to simplify the "roughest" of the 40k RPG systems in terms of how close to the ground and lack of power (or even at higher levels, being unable to flaunt that power many times to stay hidden). While in RT/BC the system makes sense, you are larger than life, you don't care about the small details. In RT you own a spaceship, a license to be awesome and enough money to have scrooge moneyvault. You have "people" who all they do is that sort of thing. For BC it is similar, but different. While in OW, you have the might of the imperial supply chain behind you. Basic ammo and supplies are never a worry after a mission is done and you are back to base. Extra stuff is harder, but doable.

 

But DH involves having to hide your mission, to go into the underhives at times, where bribes with cash work well, where you operate as a small cell, often out of contact and with limited info. Being able to magically draw on "Influence" makes little sense, especially if on a new planet.

 

However, it could be a great way of tossing around Inquisitorial "Might" letting players have a system for being able to requisition stuff in the field from orginizations, as well as working out a system for being able to get that fancy gear you couldn't afford. (Maybe even add a time modifier?)


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#8 Roy Stone

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 05:12 AM

Sounding good to me so far.

 

Being a fan of writing, I can easily write the interactions and just have dice rolls when it comes to Charming, investigating, interrogating, intimidating or whatever else is needed. All the games have a simply way of modifying the dice so you're more likely to persuade your average awe inspired citizen to have a cup of tea than you are a bloodthirsty crazed loon.

 

I'm not too bothered about older material. All I want where adversaries are concerned is covered in other books. I'll be collecting lots of Rogue Trader supplements as much of my action will be in space and moving from planet to planet.

 

Dark Heresy is just a means to include agents of the Inquisition.



#9 khimaera

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 10:10 AM

The people who were mad that the first beta was incompatible with earlier lines are now happy.  The people who were happy that the first beta went in new directions are now mad. 

That's the most diplomatic take on the situation I've ever seen.



#10 Tom Cruise

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 11:28 AM

Kinda a false dichotomy though. I've seen more than a few people who wanted backwards compatibility expressing distaste with this system. I think most people still wanted SOME kind of advancement, rather than what amounts to a copy-paste job of Only War.



#11 Adeptus-B

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 11:50 AM

Kinda a false dichotomy though. I've seen more than a few people who wanted backwards compatibility expressing distaste with this system. I think most people still wanted SOME kind of advancement, rather than what amounts to a copy-paste job of Only War.

 

I'm sort-of in that category. I wouldn't say I have 'distaste' for the  Beta2 version of DH2, but I'm afraid it's not going to be as much of an improvement over the previous game as each game in the WH40KRP line has been up 'til now. I'll still buy it, of course (Hell, I would have bought it if just a fully errata'd version of DH1!), but I think time constraints caused by abandoning Beta1 will result in this game being too close a copy of its' predecessor, rather than a solid step forward. Beta1's Action Points, for instance, would probably have been a good addition to DH2, since the only real problem with them was Beta1's unpopular RoF rules. The current line's awkward terms of Half Action/Full Action/Reaction really need to be improved. Ah well, maybe the next game in the line...


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#12 khimaera

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 01:07 PM

Kinda a false dichotomy though. I've seen more than a few people who wanted backwards compatibility expressing distaste with this system. I think most people still wanted SOME kind of advancement, rather than what amounts to a copy-paste job of Only War.

This subject has been argued to death.  I'll concede that action points may have added some depth to the game, but I'm perfectly happy with what FFG has done with DH2. I don't see it as a "copy-paste job" at all.



#13 Covered in Weasels

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 01:21 PM

I think DH 2 is a marked improvement over the original system. Character creation is more flexible, combat is more balanced (though admittedly far from perfect), and Update 6 brought psykers down to manageable power levels and added some strategic decision-making to the casting process. The updates are available for download free of charge on FFG's website, so you can at least get an idea of what I mean.

Personally, I would have liked to see a greater departure from the previous rules systems. IMO the WH40k RPG line has reached the limit of what it can achieve while preserving backwards compatibility. If any improvements beyond small balancing tweaks are implemented, the game will truly be a Second Edition that does not mesh with previous rules. I only started playing Dark Heresy about a year ago, so I am not very
financially invested in the 40k RPG products; however, many people have been playing multiple game lines for several years and have spent hundreds of dollars on sourcebooks. While I don't mind sacrificing backwards compatibility in favor of a completely new rule set, many others would be understandably upset by that development.

Having used the NPCs in the beta quite a bit, I must say that I find them more interesting than enemies in DH 1. Many of them have unique abilities; for example, there is a PDF officer NPC who can order allied troops to "go to ground," granting them bonus armor from cover. My personal favorite flavor-wise is the War-priest's Psy Drain ability, which lets him temporarily boost his Psy Rating by causing Willpower damage to friendly psykers.

If you want to convert old NPCs to the DH 2 beta rules, you will need to do some significant reworking to make them compare appropriately to the new NPCs. Unnatural characteristics are assigned as flat bonuses rather than multipliers and as a result are much more common -- for example, the lowly shotgun-wielding Fleshbent mutants have Unnatural Strenth and Toughness (1). Simply porting over old NPCs without any changes will likely be rather unsatisfying.

The one area I find truly disappointing is the selection of psychic powers. They are essentially copy-pasted from Only War and include few powers that are specifically tailored for use in an investigative game. Divination in particular is essentially a collection of bland, MMORPG-style support powers instead of the much more useful investigative abilities from DH 1. The actual system for CASTING the powers is much improved, but I really hope they adjust the power selection before the final release.

In short, I think FFG did as best as they could working within the constraints of the old system. I would still recommend the new product but I feel that it could have been so much more impressive if the rules were overhauled entirely.
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#14 khimaera

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 01:31 PM

The one area I find truly disappointing is the selection of psychic powers. They are essentially copy-pasted from Only War and include few powers that are specifically tailored for use in an investigative game. Divination in particular is essentially a collection of bland, MMORPG-style support powers instead of the much more useful investigative abilities from DH 1. The actual system for CASTING the powers is much improved, but I really hope they adjust the power selection before the final release.

In short, I think FFG did as best as they could working within the constraints of the old system. I would still recommend the new product but I feel that it could have been so much more impressive if the rules were overhauled entirely.

This, in particular, I agree with. The psychic powers are really my only big gripe.  I've brought this up in every feedback email I've sent, but there was disappointingly little attention given to the psychic powers. That said, every response that I've gotten from the Devs suggested that they were taking our critiques of the powers seriously, so maybe we will see our ideas implemented in the final product.
They have said they are still playtesting and the book hasn't gone to the printers yet.


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#15 Roy Stone

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 06:05 AM

I think DH 2 is a marked improvement over the original system. Character creation is more flexible, combat is more balanced (though admittedly far from perfect), and Update 6 brought psykers down to manageable power levels and added some strategic decision-making to the casting process. The updates are available for download free of charge on FFG's website, so you can at least get an idea of what I mean.

Personally, I would have liked to see a greater departure from the previous rules systems. IMO the WH40k RPG line has reached the limit of what it can achieve while preserving backwards compatibility. If any improvements beyond small balancing tweaks are implemented, the game will truly be a Second Edition that does not mesh with previous rules. I only started playing Dark Heresy about a year ago, so I am not very
financially invested in the 40k RPG products; however, many people have been playing multiple game lines for several years and have spent hundreds of dollars on sourcebooks. While I don't mind sacrificing backwards compatibility in favor of a completely new rule set, many others would be understandably upset by that development.

Having used the NPCs in the beta quite a bit, I must say that I find them more interesting than enemies in DH 1. Many of them have unique abilities; for example, there is a PDF officer NPC who can order allied troops to "go to ground," granting them bonus armor from cover. My personal favorite flavor-wise is the War-priest's Psy Drain ability, which lets him temporarily boost his Psy Rating by causing Willpower damage to friendly psykers.

If you want to convert old NPCs to the DH 2 beta rules, you will need to do some significant reworking to make them compare appropriately to the new NPCs. Unnatural characteristics are assigned as flat bonuses rather than multipliers and as a result are much more common -- for example, the lowly shotgun-wielding Fleshbent mutants have Unnatural Strenth and Toughness (1). Simply porting over old NPCs without any changes will likely be rather unsatisfying.

The one area I find truly disappointing is the selection of psychic powers. They are essentially copy-pasted from Only War and include few powers that are specifically tailored for use in an investigative game. Divination in particular is essentially a collection of bland, MMORPG-style support powers instead of the much more useful investigative abilities from DH 1. The actual system for CASTING the powers is much improved, but I really hope they adjust the power selection before the final release.

In short, I think FFG did as best as they could working within the constraints of the old system. I would still recommend the new product but I feel that it could have been so much more impressive if the rules were overhauled entirely.

 

 

 

The one area I find truly disappointing is the selection of psychic powers. They are essentially copy-pasted from Only War and include few powers that are specifically tailored for use in an investigative game. Divination in particular is essentially a collection of bland, MMORPG-style support powers instead of the much more useful investigative abilities from DH 1. The actual system for CASTING the powers is much improved, but I really hope they adjust the power selection before the final release.

In short, I think FFG did as best as they could working within the constraints of the old system. I would still recommend the new product but I feel that it could have been so much more impressive if the rules were overhauled entirely.

This, in particular, I agree with. The psychic powers are really my only big gripe.  I've brought this up in every feedback email I've sent, but there was disappointingly little attention given to the psychic powers. That said, every response that I've gotten from the Devs suggested that they were taking our critiques of the powers seriously, so maybe we will see our ideas implemented in the final product.
They have said they are still playtesting and the book hasn't gone to the printers yet.

 

 

I've not got Only War, so this will be a "wow, something new" to me at least.

 

I'm loving the sound of character creation, and I have read some of the topics relating to them. I want two of my characters to be psyker-assassins....both have divination; one is an archer and one is a close combat specialist. From what I've read, such a psyker-assassin is possible.

 

As to the psychic powers, I'll just pick from the original Dark Heresy and the Ascension supplement. Alternatively, I've got both Rogue Trader and Deathwatch from which to find useful powers. I've yet to pick up the RT supplement that deals with psychic powers, but it is on my "to buy" list.

 

So if we don't have such a big selection of psychic powers that Dark Heresy presents, it isn't a big deal to me.



#16 AtoMaki

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 07:54 AM

I'm loving the sound of character creation, and I have read some of the topics relating to them. I want two of my characters to be psyker-assassins....both have divination; one is an archer and one is a close combat specialist. From what I've read, such a psyker-assassin is possible.

 

Oh man, DH2.0 is like the Assassin Edition of the RPG line. If you like assassins then you will love this ruleset  :D !

 

As to the psychic powers, I'll just pick from the original Dark Heresy and the Ascension supplement. Alternatively, I've got both Rogue Trader and Deathwatch from which to find useful powers. I've yet to pick up the RT supplement that deals with psychic powers, but it is on my "to buy" list.

 

Idon't think that psychic powers have much backward compatibility (at least concerning RT and DW) because the focus-power-tests-with-modifiers was a BC thing IIRC. 



#17 Lynata

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 08:21 AM

In short, I think FFG did as best as they could working within the constraints of the old system. I would still recommend the new product but I feel that it could have been so much more impressive if the rules were overhauled entirely.

 

Agreed. That being said, to some people *coughs* even the first Beta did not go "far enough", such as on the question of characteristics (both their range as well as the exact effects), or taking only half of how GW's Inquisitor game dealt with injuries rather than all of it (whilst simultaneously making it more complex), which is why the game would have suffered from many the same problems as the existing lines.

 

Essentially, the way I see it, the first Beta dropped some good stuff (backwards compatibility) without actually addressing all the issues of the old system, which makes the whole "complete overhaul" seem like a wasted opportunity, and thus ultimately useless.

 

I admit that I was intrigued by the idea of action points, though. Maybe in another game, then.

 

tl;dr - it's impossible to satisfy everyone.


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previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter -- debriefed), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors -- KIA), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose -- assassinated), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia -- retired), Taleera "Raven" Nephran (Hive Ganger & Inquisitorial Assassin -- mindwiped)

#18 Roy Stone

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 08:34 AM

 

I'm loving the sound of character creation, and I have read some of the topics relating to them. I want two of my characters to be psyker-assassins....both have divination; one is an archer and one is a close combat specialist. From what I've read, such a psyker-assassin is possible.

 

Oh man, DH2.0 is like the Assassin Edition of the RPG line. If you like assassins then you will love this ruleset  :D !

 

As to the psychic powers, I'll just pick from the original Dark Heresy and the Ascension supplement. Alternatively, I've got both Rogue Trader and Deathwatch from which to find useful powers. I've yet to pick up the RT supplement that deals with psychic powers, but it is on my "to buy" list.

 

Idon't think that psychic powers have much backward compatibility (at least concerning RT and DW) because the focus-power-tests-with-modifiers was a BC thing IIRC. 

 

 

Sweet! Martial arts acolytes is something I've been seriously considering. The "swordswoman" character might well be an Astropath in the Inquisitor's employ....

 

 1370576444270.png

 

As for the psychic power backward compatibility; I guess I could always make some house rules and post them here for others to discuss and improve upon.

 

Gotta love the forums for talking rules.


Edited by Roy Stone, 06 February 2014 - 08:35 AM.


#19 Morangias

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 03:15 PM

Kinda a false dichotomy though. I've seen more than a few people who wanted backwards compatibility expressing distaste with this system. I think most people still wanted SOME kind of advancement, rather than what amounts to a copy-paste job of Only War.

I'm not most people, but I certainly wanted bolder changes. To quote my past self, something that's about as much an improvement over OW/BC as those two were an improvement over DH/RT/DW would be ideal. Hell, I'd gladly give up backwards compatibility altogether if presented with new rules I could call good - but sadly, what we initially got was anything but good in my book.

 

Overall, I'm rather disappointed with how things turned out in the end.


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#20 Cymbel

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 05:49 PM

I do have to say I like that gear and a lot of NPCs transfer over (barring the broken UnCha though)






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