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The Gauntlet - question about "his turn ends immediately"


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#1 The_Warlock

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Posted 02 February 2014 - 03:27 PM

We had a game today and we had a strange situation in the end which raised a question. This is the part of the Alternative Ending Card which decided our game:

 

If he fails to successfully encounter a card, his turn ends immediately and he must encounter the card again on his next turn.

 

If the turn immediately ends, does this mean that the play passes to the next player? Has the active player the chance to exchange Trophes for Strength/Craft?

 

This was the situation: Bounty Hunter two spaces ahead of the Cat Burglar in the Inner Region, he reveals the two cards on the Crown of Command and meets Flesh Golem and Atlas Ogre. He had a bunch of unexchanged trophies, making the Flesh Golem a Strength: 17 Enemy! Together with the Atlas Ogre, this made up for Strength: 29; too much even for the grim Bounty Hunter.

 

He had 2 lives left and obviously lost the battle; was he allowed to turn in trophies after failing to succesfully encounter the Nether Cards?

 

The winner of the game depends on this answer.



#2 gnarly1

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Posted 02 February 2014 - 03:32 PM

If his turn ends i believe he can't exchange trophies that turn.



#3 chemical22

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 12:05 PM

I would agree.  Cashing in trophies is something that is done prior to the end of your turn.

 

If a rule indicates that it ends your turn, I would think that is the end, with no chance of additional action.



#4 GrimGuvna

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 06:12 PM

When a character kills an Enemy, he may take it as a trophy. 
A character may exchange trophies at the end of his turn to 
gain additional Strength and Craft counters. 
 
 
I disagree.
 
The end of the turn is the end of the turn no matter how it ended.  You will always have a chance to trade trophies in preparation for the next turn.
 
This makes sense within the context of the game as it gives you a tactical choice to use in the face of a threat such as the one on the CoC in Warlocks scenario.  Otherwise he would be unfairly screwed with no options.


#5 talismanamsilat

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 06:39 PM

I totally agree with GrimGuvna on this matter.

 

Ell.



#6 adjogi

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 08:36 PM

GrimGuvna is correct. Both the rules and the alternate ending are saying the same thing - when your turn ends.

 

 

"....his turn immediately ends"

 

"...A character may exchange trophies at the end of his turn..."


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#7 The_Warlock

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 01:11 AM

I also tend to interprete the matter like GrimGuvna. This is how we resolved the game (Bounty Hunter exchanged two 7-point Trophies he had and the balance of the combat turned to his favour).

 

The question about Trophy exchange, however, is a more general one. Talisman never received a well-defined turn sequence, if compared to other games (e.g. like Runebound), and the Trophy exchange timing is undefined just as the "start of turn" abilities, which required a FAQ to be understood correctly.

 

For example, players may ask if they can exchange Trophies if Lightning Bolt is cast on them:

 

Cast at any time on any character. That character is stunned (may do nothing apart from negating this Spell with Counterspell) for the duration of that turn.

 

"At the end of his turn" does not necessarily mean "after his turn has ended". We would normally think that when the turn has ended, play passes to the next player, so "at the end" could just mean "as his last action during this turn".

 

Such situations are so rare that can smolder beneath the ashes for many years, but bring some general rule deficiences to our attention. I agree about the suggested way of resolving the situation, but I wish an official clarification was given sooner or later.


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#8 talismanisland

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 09:51 AM

As our resident Warlock points out, there are a couple of ways this can be fleshed out. The problem with Talisman is that a turn is made up of many parts, which has been somewhat addressed in Relic with its "phases".

 

So, for example, you might have - Start of turn, before you roll for movement, before you move, after you move but before you encounter the space, before attacking, before comparing attack rolls, after attacking but before resolution of the attack, all of which comes before the end of the turn... and probably a number of others!

 

Relic breaks a turn down into Start - Movement, Exploration, Engagement and Experience - End.

 

If you consider Talisman experience phase to be the same as in Relic (and why wouldn't it be?) then you exchange trophies before play passes to the next player.

 

The problem is that "turn immediately ends" and "at the end of his turn" are/can be different things.

 

Once your turn has ended, then it is someone else's turn. At the end of your turn just means some point after you have done everything else, but before you say "Right, my turn is over, now it is your turn".

 

Sadly, until Talisman has a standardised timing language like the one used in Relic, there will always be differences of opinion on how it should all be worked out. I am ambivalent about how this particular situation is resolved, but would probably lean towards your turn ending and therefore not being able to do anything else. Then again, thematically it might make sense to allow previously killed Enemies to be cashed in, though if you already had 7 in total of any one type you really should be cashing it in long before, and hence the potency of the Flesh Golem can be fully realised (imo).

 

Anyway, this really just adds fuel to the fire of debate, so it will have to wait until FFG either give an indication of what happens at certain times during a turn, or they adopt the Relic system.


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#9 GrimGuvna

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 09:58 AM

We totally definitely need a new FAQ.

 

Loadsa rule debates have surfaced since the last one 2 years ago.

 

These same rule concerns must have been an issue for the lads at Nomad games to programme in to the software, so I can only imagine they are getting their clarifications from source which means they should definitely be considering an updated FAQ for playing Talisman old school.



#10 chemical22

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 10:21 AM

GrimGuvna is correct. Both the rules and the alternate ending are saying the same thing - when your turn ends.

 

 

"....his turn immediately ends"

 

"...A character may exchange trophies at the end of his turn..."

 

Hmm.  See I still don't read this same as you.

 

"....his turn immediately ends"

 

To me, this means that your turn is complete and you should pass off to the next player.

 

"...A character may exchange trophies at the end of his turn..."

 

I interpret this as your turn is still in progress and as a final action you may exchange trophies. The difference is one is finalized and one is being in process of finalization.

 

I'm not saying I'm right, as the language is not 100% clear - but it is my interpretation.


Edited by chemical22, 04 February 2014 - 10:22 AM.


#11 The_Warlock

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 01:28 PM

Anyway, this really just adds fuel to the fire of debate, so it will have to wait until FFG either give an indication of what happens at certain times during a turn, or they adopt the Relic system.

 

This was the point. I asked the question just to test the mood about a well known problem. It has nothing to do with the Gauntlet and its design (which is flawless, IMHO), but it's more about the blurry Talisman Turn Sequence.

 

There are dozens of small things that could be perfected in Talisman 4ER; this doesn't mean the game isn't solid, funny and just great as it is. But after 5 good years and hundreds of new cards the Base Game Rulebook is showing its unforeseen limits.

 

Of course there's the big tradition of Talisman playing in its 30-year-long history, which Talismanisland proudly represents, but there will always be some unanswered questions when it comes to card interaction with basic rules. A "streamlined" new edition of Talisman, with clear rules designed after this long and exciting 4th Edition experience, is not what we need right now, but it's something I hope to see after all 4 corners are published and perhaps a couple more expansions. I don't think a FAQ will ever be enough to answer to all possible questions. A clear Turn Sequence might fit the bill, clear and improved Spellcasting rules might sort out some of the problems people normally encounter while playing. I can wait a long time, because I have a superb 4th Edition to play with, but this is the future I imagine for Talisman.


Edited by The_Warlock, 04 February 2014 - 01:29 PM.


#12 talismanisland

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 02:04 PM

Perhaps then we should not only push for a FAQ, but for a "Living Rulebook" that can house all of the different effects and rulings for the game instead of being spread across (currently) 11 rule books/sheets.


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#13 GrimGuvna

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 06:14 PM

Wholeheartedly agree.

 

That would be the modern way and may well forgo the need for a new edition in the near future.

 

The game design is excellent as it is apart from said rule-book clarifications, and if anything major needed to be revised then an update expansion could be released to replace or add elements to the game.

 

That said, major businesses like FFG rely on new editions to continue the cycle O business, so i would not be surprised to see a 5th edition in say 4 years.



#14 adjogi

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 06:51 PM

It's another situation that can easily be interpreted either way. I have always liked in Talisman that you read the cards literally but, as one can see, even then it's never 100% clear.

 

I really like the idea of  a living rulebook. Not only would it clear up a lot of these debates and interpretations but it would certainly save some time going through those 11 books in the middle of a game when one of these scenarios comes up. (not to mention the additional time spent once the rule is found that it is then debated and argued!)

 

Maybe that's why my games last all day... ^_^


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#15 JediKnightAmoeba

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 09:44 AM

Or they could make one giant rule book while adopting the Relic language-put it all in an Expansion and add a few cards and characters to the set.  I would buy it.  but then again I will buy anything to make sure the set is complete.  Until then, we definitely need an updated FAQ.  



#16 talismanisland

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 02:19 PM

Or they could make one giant rule book while adopting the Relic language-put it all in an Expansion and add a few cards and characters to the set.  I would buy it.  but then again I will buy anything to make sure the set is complete.    

 

Ditto... :)


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