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Is There a Glitch with the Champion Class?


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#1 dragonfly8man

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 10:21 AM

OK, sooooooooo, stupid question, but I need to ask since one of the players in my group is trying to be slick.

 

I'm pretty sure you cannot spend fatigue to do additional attacks per turn, but since it looks like the rulebook "did not explicitly say you couldn't," I have a player whose character now desperately needs to be killed a few times...

 

The problem:  With the Champion class there is a skill, or ability (bear with me, since I don't have my game stuff right here to check proper names, etc.) which gives you the option (or perhaps it is an automatic action) to spend surges on regaining fatigue.  He combines this with valor to add damage to an attack...then he regains valor with the other surge in his pool -or something to that effect.

     So the dirty rat is waddling over to leiutenants like Baron Zachareth, declaring an attack, and then using the surges to gain valor and fatigue and basically cycling through attacks by spending the fatigue to attack and using valor for additional damage.  It's a vicious cycle that leaves the leiutenant 2/3 dead after one turn and made the Shadow Vault interlude a cakewalk.  This has to stop or my group will get bored and all the work I am doing to cultivate interest in Descent campaigns will be wasted.

 

     When I used to play 1st ed. with my brother, you could advance, or move and attack, or battle if you did not move.  That was it: 2 attacks max per turn and dems da rules...

Could someone please verify that this is still the case for 2nd edition?  2 attacks max per hero or monster (unless the "Frenzy" Overlord card is used and the monster does not move), right?  Otherwise, someone needs to let FF know that there is a huge issue with the Champion class or any character that has a large amount of fatigue.

 

I'd really like to be able to kill this character with something sweetly humiliating...like a pack of Goblin Archers or Fire Imps...  I want him to take the quests seriously and let the other players enjoy the game...please help.

 

Thanks!

 

 



#2 fastkarate

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 10:49 AM

You can't spend fatigue to make a generic attack, only to gain 1 movement point.



#3 bigObob

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 10:56 AM

This sounds wrong. You can only regain one fatigue no matter how many surges you roll.

#4 dragonfly8man

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 11:06 AM

Thank you both!  This is the best news I've had all week.....now to go about craftily executing a Dwarf.... heheheh



#5 griton

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 11:15 AM

I'm pretty sure you cannot spend fatigue to do additional attacks per turn, but since it looks like the rulebook "did not explicitly say you couldn't," I have a player whose character now desperately needs to be killed a few times...

Don't ever play with anyone who refuses to accept that this is never an acceptable way to approach rules.

 

The game also doesn't say "You may spend all your wounds to sacrifice yourself and become a martyr to automatically win the encounter". Ridiculous? Maybe. But it's the same as getting extra attacks from fatigue. The rules don't say you can, so you can't.

 

As for the "vicious cycle", point to the rulebook on page 13. "Up to one unused surge may be used by an attacking hero to recover one fatigue." Note that this applies to once per attack.

 

 

     When I used to play 1st ed. with my brother, you could advance, or move and attack, or battle if you did not move.  That was it: 2 attacks max per turn and dems da rules...

Could someone please verify that this is still the case for 2nd edition?  2 attacks max per hero or monster (unless the "Frenzy" Overlord card is used and the monster does not move), right?  Otherwise, someone needs to let FF know that there is a huge issue with the Champion class or any character that has a large amount of fatigue.

 

For 2nd edition, they actually simplified it: You get 2 actions. What actions you have are explicitly limited (the list can be found on the reference card, and on page 7 of the rulebook

 

1 action = one of:

Move Action: Gain movement points to be spent during your turn.

Attack Action: Perform one attack.

Skill Action: Use a Class skill that has an arrow on it.

Rest Action: Nothing immediately, but after your turn, you get back all of your fatigue.

Search Action: Reveal a search token

Stand Up Action: If knocked out, heal a little bit and immediately end your turn without taking any other actions.

Revive Action: Heal a nearby hero, helping them stand up. (Costs you 1 action, where standing up on their own would cost them 2)

Open/Close a Door: Self explanatory

Special: Any other hero / quest ability that has an arrow or says "as an action"

 

1st Edition used a lot of these as movement point expenditures, but now they are just "1 action". So unless a hero has some specific skill that gives extra attacks, they only get 2 at most because each one requires using one of your two actions.


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#6 BentoSan

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 11:54 AM

I am not sure what card you are refering too as there is no card which lets you get a "free" attack just by spending a fatigue. There are only 3 champion cards that use fatigue, 2 of which are purely defence related cards. The third card is:

"motivating charge"
~> exhaust this card to move up to your speed and perform an attack with a melee weapon. If this attack defeats a monster, each hero within 3 spaces of you(including yourself) may either gain 1 valor or recover 1 fatigue.


The ~> part of this card denotes that it takes an action to use. Heroes only have 2 actions, so thus he would only be able to do this action twice.

It also says to exaust the card so he can only use it once per turn.


There is also no card which allows the champion to gain additional fatigue beyond the 1 per attack that any hero can recover if he spends a surge. There is however a card which lets him spend 1 surge to gain 1 valor token. So if he wants he can recover 1 fatigue and 1 valor per attack provided he does not roll a miss and that the monster takes damage after rolling defeme dice.
Edit: except for the card which states he or an adjacent hero can recover a fatigue when he or anyone else spends 1 valor


The champion class is what i would consider a semi-support class, he does not do massive damage by himself but he does certainly pull his weight when giving valor tokens to his companion. A champion teamed up with something like a runemaster is EXTREMELY deadly. The champion gives the runemaster a valor token, then the runemaster spends that token doing a blast attack, so the token adds 1 damage to every monster the runemaster blasted. Ontop of this because the runemaster spends a valor token, if he is standing adjacent to the champion he can recover 1 fatigue(stonic resolve). That gives the Runemaster extra fatigue to spend on runic knowledge (surge: suffer 1 fatigue to gain +2). So now he is potentially doing +3 to each monster being blasted. This is what makes the champion a great choice of character.

So reallly when played to his full potemtial your champion should actually be a wonderful team player in your group and not a lone solider single handedly winning the campaign for your group.

Edited by BentoSan, 30 January 2014 - 01:56 PM.

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#7 bigObob

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 02:56 PM

Yeah, I am looking at the champions deck now and I don't see him as especially dangerous. If you follow the rules you only get two attacks, and one other thing to note is just because you have fatigue doesn't mean you can use it. Once you have finished your turn you can't "reactivate" your hero and do more stuff, unless you have a heroic feat that lets you do it once per encounter. It sounds like this hero player needs to acquaint him/herself to the rules a little better.


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#8 Steve-O

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 07:28 PM

Could someone please verify that this is still the case for 2nd edition?  2 attacks max per hero or monster (unless the "Frenzy" Overlord card is used and the monster does not move), right?

There's no explicit limit on the number of attacks that a hero can make per turn, except that performing an attack almost always costs an action and the hero only gets two actions per turn.

 

In theory it is possible that a skill available to some class might allow him to perform an attack without costing an action, although I can't think of any such examples off the top of my head.  I would hope such a skill would at least require exhaustion or some other method of preventing it from being used too many times.

 

Monsters, on the other hand, are explicitly only allowed to make one attack per turn.  Doesn't matter if the monster moves or not, only one action can be "attack."  Any monster ability that says you may "perform an attack" also counts towards this limit.  Frenzy allows a monster to make an additional attack, for a total of two.



#9 bigObob

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 08:32 PM

One hook is capable of doing 3 attacks if I am not mistaken, but that is one out of 60 some heroes .

#10 Underworld40k

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 01:55 AM

Some abilities may let you do an additional move and attack like advance from the knights skill set, but even that has the cost of exhausting the card.

So as everyone else has said, no you cannot spam fatigue for attacks. 



#11 rfisha

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 02:52 AM

The Apothecary's 'Bottled Courage' skill does give you an attack without an action, but must be exhausted. I am certain there are no skills or possibilities of spamming attacks.   



#12 Krawallburste

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 04:14 AM

the thief is also capable of performing an attack without using an action. it costs 1 fatigue, needs to get exausted and the monster has to be the only one in line of sight.

 

lvl 3 skill 



#13 griton

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 10:17 AM

Also keep in mind that the Valor token MUST be spent BEFORE dice are rolled. So if he gets a surge on the dice that he can spend to gain a valor, that valor CAN NOT be used on that attack. Even if he gets a surge from something that isn't the dice, the Spend Surges phase of performing an attack comes AFTER the Roll Dice phase, so he still couldn't use that surge on a valor to be spent on that attack.


Edited by griton, 31 January 2014 - 10:17 AM.


#14 BentoSan

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 11:18 PM

Also keep in mind that the Valor token MUST be spent BEFORE dice are rolled. So if he gets a surge on the dice that he can spend to gain a valor, that valor CAN NOT be used on that attack. Even if he gets a surge from something that isn't the dice, the Spend Surges phase of performing an attack comes AFTER the Roll Dice phase, so he still couldn't use that surge on a valor to be spent on that attack.


On the flip side, with stonic resolve he or another hero gets the fatigue when the valor is spent (before the doce roll) which will allows them to spend the fatigue after the dice roll as i talked about above using the runemaster example. These cases are rare, as you do not very often need to spend fatigue to use a surge ability, but it is worth noting.

#15 Exprise

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 02:17 AM

This sounds wrong. You can only regain one fatigue no matter how many surges you roll.

 

This just got me thinking: Can you only spend 1x surge to remove 1x fatigue per TURN or per ATTACK?



#16 BentoSan

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 02:53 AM

 

This sounds wrong. You can only regain one fatigue no matter how many surges you roll.

 

This just got me thinking: Can you only spend 1x surge to remove 1x fatigue per TURN or per ATTACK?

 

 

Every hero basically has the following ability:

 

Surge: Recover 1 fatigue

 

Like all other abilities it can only be used once per attack.

 

This means that you can recover 2 fatigue if you attack twice, do damage both times and spend 1 surge from each of the attacks on recovering 1 fatigue.






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