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Combining the Firespray and Shuttle in the same squad


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#1 The_Brown_Bomber

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 09:59 PM

I started discussion on this in the Lambda versus Firespray thread but i think it deserves its own discussion so here it is.

 

Can the Firespray and Shuttle work in the same squad?

imo YES.

 

here are some squads I have in development:

 

i started with these...

 
Squad#1 (99pts)
Omicron Group Pilot + FCS + Gunner + Engine Upgrade (32)
Bounty Hunter + HLC + Recon Specialist (43)
Academy Pilot (12)
Academy Pilot (12)
 
Squad#2 (99pts)
Bounty Hunter + Recon Specialist (36)
Omicron Group Pilot + Vader crew (24)
Obsidian Squadron Pilot (13)
Obsidian Squadron Pilot (13)
Obsidian Squadron Pilot (13)

 

Two different loadouts on the shuttle, I'm most impressed with Squad#1 but the low PS of all ships needed addressing. Rather than upgrading the BH to a name pilot I've opted for improving the support ships. I didn't want to pour too many points into one ship, even one as durable as the firespray.

 

After thinking about it most of today i came up with this version...

 

Squad#3 (100pts)

Omicron Group Pilot + FCS + Gunner + Engine Upgrade (32)
Bounty Hunter + Recon Specialist (36)
Backstabber (16)
Dark Curse (16)

  • HLC although tempting, I am starting to think is not worth the points - especially when an enemy is behind my firespray.
  • I really wanted to find room for gunner on the firepray but instead opted for the beefed up tie-fighter pilots who will be the flankers, their 6 PS should help them to evade firing arcs and be a real nuisance.
  • I did consider using an Alpha Squadron Pilot teamed with a single Academy Pilot for PS1 blockers and a bit of extra offense with the intercepter - still might try that.

Feedback and suggestions?


Edited by The_Brown_Bomber, 24 January 2014 - 10:57 PM.

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"There will be a substantial reward for anyone who finds the Millenium Falcon. You are free to use whatever means necessary, but I want them alive. No disintegration!".

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#2 DraconPyrothayan

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 10:07 PM

Here's another variation for you

Bounty Hunter

+ Heavy Laser Cannon

+ Mercenary Co-Pilot

[42]

 

Omicron Group Pilot

+ Heavy Laser Cannon

+ Mercenary Co-Pilot

+ Mercenary Co-Pilot

+ Engine Upgrade

[36]

 

Captain Jonus

[22]

 

100 on the dot!

Of course, you could trade out your Mercs and the Engine Upgrade for any other combination of 10 points you wish. I just like the idea of critting that often!


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#3 aArendsvark

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 12:54 AM

I don't want to steal SableGryphon's thunder, but:

 

32- OMG Shuttle - Fire Control System, Gunner, Engine Upgrade

32- OMG Shuttle - Fire Control System, Gunner, Engine Upgrade

36 - Bounty Hunter - Recon Specialist

 

seems pretty solid to me.  Not too different from your 3rd squad, but from what I've read, multiple shuttles work a bit better than a single one.  I haven't flown it though, so take it with a huge scoop of salt.



#4 The_Brown_Bomber

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 01:02 AM

I don't want to steal SableGryphon's thunder, but:

 

32- OMG Shuttle - Fire Control System, Gunner, Engine Upgrade

32- OMG Shuttle - Fire Control System, Gunner, Engine Upgrade

36 - Bounty Hunter - Recon Specialist

 

seems pretty solid to me.  Not too different from your 3rd squad, but from what I've read, multiple shuttles work a bit better than a single one.  I haven't flown it though, so take it with a huge scoop of salt.

 

i like this setup - have considered running double shuttles, i think it could work. im just concerned about the low PS but with a solid game plan u might be able to keep more agile ships off ur flanks. even with engine upgrade ur shuttles can be out manouvered especially by swarm lists. this squad would hit hard in the first exchange but swinging those shuttles around for a second attack? maybe if u kept a shuttle on each flank during setup and cut back to the middle or supported with the firespsray from the centre?


"There will be a substantial reward for anyone who finds the Millenium Falcon. You are free to use whatever means necessary, but I want them alive. No disintegration!".

Lord Vader


#5 kraedin

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 08:39 AM

I like:

 

Bounty Hunter /w Recon Specialist (x2)

Omicron Group Pilot /w Heavy Laser Cannon



#6 Kelvan

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 11:28 AM

At Worlds Mr Froggies ran 2 BH w/ Recon and a Omicron w/ vader and sensors

 

Here's one off of the top of my head

 

Backsabber

Saber w/ptl

BH w/ Recon

OGP w/ Vader

 

You run the BH as your tank... get into scruff, try to get shot and draw fire... then run.

Doom shuttle your offense as much as possible, dont try to keep it alive. Use backstabber and saber to get out of arc shots as your main offense once the doom shuttle dies.


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#7 The_Brown_Bomber

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 11:47 AM

At Worlds Mr Froggies ran 2 BH w/ Recon and a Omicron w/ vader and sensors

 

Here's one off of the top of my head

 

Backsabber

Saber w/ptl

BH w/ Recon

OGP w/ Vader

 

You run the BH as your tank... get into scruff, try to get shot and draw fire... then run.

Doom shuttle your offense as much as possible, dont try to keep it alive. Use backstabber and saber to get out of arc shots as your main offense once the doom shuttle dies.

thanks for this input - im a little nervous that as people learn to play against he doom shuttle they will just stay out of its front arc and leave it alone - focusing on ur other threats. in theory you can keep your other ships in the shuttles firing arc and entice enemy ships into that same shuttle arc but that shuttle is eventually going to need to turn around and wout engine upgrade thats a large window of opportunity for your support ships to be on their own with no cover fire - just seems like u will be losing optional firepower for long stretches of the battle. 


Edited by The_Brown_Bomber, 25 January 2014 - 11:48 AM.

"There will be a substantial reward for anyone who finds the Millenium Falcon. You are free to use whatever means necessary, but I want them alive. No disintegration!".

Lord Vader


#8 Rakky Wistol

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 11:53 AM

BB, I like your shuttle #3 and have run a similar list- I used NB instead of dark curse although DC fits here since you actually want your ties for mid and end game and no one shoots at Dc.

I have also run vader shuttle + named BH+ NB+ stabber + academy. The extra ps 1 ship is a pretty solid option for blocking and for planning your own shuttle bumps. It's also a lot harder to Kturn or fly behind your shuttle early with 3 of these little suckers taking up space.
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#9 Kelvan

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 11:57 AM

 

At Worlds Mr Froggies ran 2 BH w/ Recon and a Omicron w/ vader and sensors

 

Here's one off of the top of my head

 

Backsabber

Saber w/ptl

BH w/ Recon

OGP w/ Vader

 

You run the BH as your tank... get into scruff, try to get shot and draw fire... then run.

Doom shuttle your offense as much as possible, dont try to keep it alive. Use backstabber and saber to get out of arc shots as your main offense once the doom shuttle dies.

thanks for this input - im a little nervous that as people learn to play against he doom shuttle they will just stay out of its front arc and leave it alone - focusing on ur other threats. in theory you can keep your other ships in the shuttles firing arc and entice enemy ships into that same shuttle arc but that shuttle is eventually going to need to turn around and wout engine upgrade thats a large window of opportunity for your support ships to be on their own with no cover fire - just seems like u will be losing optional firepower for long stretches of the battle. 

 

This is a real problem that needs to be dealt with when playing. There are a few things that help.

 

1. setting up on the edge. You can't be flanked where the enemy can't fly.

2. placing as many asteroids on your side of the map as close to your edge as possible. This will create an asteroid barrier that will help protect your flank.  Also once asteroids are behind you they're no longer in front of you right?

3. Use Vader at every opportunity including shields hits. This will lower the hp of your shuttle and cause it to get shot at. You won't have to turn it around if it's dead right? Additionally you play the doomshuttle knowing it's going to die, if all it does is vader once but take all the attacks that would be going to your other ships; It still carried the ships you want to live farther into the late game.

 

EDIT:

 

Thought of one more.

4. Use your BH. If you can draw fire and damage on the BH and delay with the shuttle... your enemy will chase the BH. Trail those ships with the Doomshuttle and punish them for attempting to do so.


Edited by Kelvan, 25 January 2014 - 11:59 AM.


#10 Rakky Wistol

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 12:06 PM

At Worlds Mr Froggies ran 2 BH w/ Recon and a Omicron w/ vader and sensors

Here's one off of the top of my head

Backsabber
Saber w/ptl
BH w/ Recon
OGP w/ Vader

You run the BH as your tank... get into scruff, try to get shot and draw fire... then run.
Doom shuttle your offense as much as possible, dont try to keep it alive. Use backstabber and saber to get out of arc shots as your main offense once the doom shuttle dies.

thanks for this input - im a little nervous that as people learn to play against he doom shuttle they will just stay out of its front arc and leave it alone - focusing on ur other threats. in theory you can keep your other ships in the shuttles firing arc and entice enemy ships into that same shuttle arc but that shuttle is eventually going to need to turn around and wout engine upgrade thats a large window of opportunity for your support ships to be on their own with no cover fire - just seems like u will be losing optional firepower for long stretches of the battle.
The Vader shuttle is the only one I'd take without an Engine upgrade and it requires a very tight game plan and flight plan to have success. If you go with the 5 ship list I just showed then you have to turtle along with Vader and the academy and use Vader every shot (except the last HP unless it would kill a major threat). You can pretty easily get 3-4 rounds of firing in if your opponent doesn't go crazy rush or fly away. You have to identify if your opponent is saving the shuttle for last ASAP. If he is go defensive with your other ships and start turning around as soon as possible. Then lead your opponent back in front of the shuttle.

It's not ideal but when you have a doom shuttle around as your last 2-3 ships its not a bad thing if you guessed/led correctly. Any shot from it can kill any ship at 5-6 hit points. That's a lot of bang for your buck, and why I don't do the last HP of damage to myself unless it would finish off an important target. 2 games recently the doom shuttle swung around and killed off a final ship while the shuttle was at 1-2 HP. Swings momentum pretty quickly in the end game (won one vs tie swarm, lost one vs Bwings).

Edited by Rakky Wistol, 25 January 2014 - 12:08 PM.

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#11 Kelvan

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 12:09 PM

That is a good point. don't use the last hp on your shuttle unless its for a kill... make the enemy waste a shot.



#12 The_Brown_Bomber

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 12:25 PM

BB, I like your shuttle #3 and have run a similar list- I used NB instead of dark curse although DC fits here since you actually want your ties for mid and end game and no one shoots at Dc.

I have also run vader shuttle + named BH+ NB+ stabber + academy. The extra ps 1 ship is a pretty solid option for blocking and for planning your own shuttle bumps. It's also a lot harder to Kturn or fly behind your shuttle early with 3 of these little suckers taking up space.

 

  • i actually really like having academy pilots in this list - as u say it gives u blocking and bumping options u dont get wout it. Its also a seemingly minimal threat early which i like as they wont go for it unless they have no other target in arc.
  • This seems like a pretty skill intensive list, a real challenge to play and win with - which is what i think i like about it.
  • i personally see the Buzzsaw loadout as the better one but then again for me this is a security blanket ship in this squad and one i need to replace with the Doom Shuttle before i can decide which one works better for me.
  • i ws playing a version of Sable.G's recommended list: Fett+5pts upgrades, Buzzsaw shuttlle and 2x Academy Pilot which i really liked but playing a name Firespray pilot just seems like such a points sink but i guess the tradeoff is ur opponent is going to take notice of it and go for all those points potentially playing into your game plan [insert evil laugh here].

Edited by The_Brown_Bomber, 25 January 2014 - 12:26 PM.

"There will be a substantial reward for anyone who finds the Millenium Falcon. You are free to use whatever means necessary, but I want them alive. No disintegration!".

Lord Vader


#13 Rakky Wistol

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 06:24 PM

I prefer my opponent to focus down on the shuttle. The BH, named or not, is just a better end game piece. Those 4 shields also mean a long day if a bad crit hits you in the opening salvo.

#14 The_Brown_Bomber

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 06:30 PM

I prefer my opponent to focus down on the shuttle. The BH, named or not, is just a better end game piece. Those 4 shields also mean a long day if a bad crit hits you in the opening salvo.

i agree - id rather have the firespray at the endgame, thats why clever players will go for it first imo.


"There will be a substantial reward for anyone who finds the Millenium Falcon. You are free to use whatever means necessary, but I want them alive. No disintegration!".

Lord Vader


#15 Eruletho

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 06:33 PM

I like this squad quite a bit:

Bounty Hunter (33)

Bounty Hunter (33)

Omicron Group Pilot (21)

-Engine Upgrade (4)

-Gunner (5)

-Intelligence Agent (1)

-Advanced Sensors (3)

 

100 points exactly, though the intel agent could be dropped for initiative. Buzzsaw shuttle and two bounty hunters is rather tough to take down



#16 The_Brown_Bomber

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 06:43 PM

I like this squad quite a bit:

Bounty Hunter (33)

Bounty Hunter (33)

Omicron Group Pilot (21)

-Engine Upgrade (4)

-Gunner (5)

-Intelligence Agent (1)

-Advanced Sensors (3)

 

100 points exactly, though the intel agent could be dropped for initiative. Buzzsaw shuttle and two bounty hunters is rather tough to take down

not bad.

not sure id adv. sensors belongs but u have switched it out for FCS so u keep ur action even if u overlap or choose a red move... yeah i can see how that might be better than FCS in some situations... what action r u likely to choose when u activate sensors? target lock? focus?

 

not having Recon specialists on ur BH's seems to be thinning ur power a bit, what is the tradeoff?


"There will be a substantial reward for anyone who finds the Millenium Falcon. You are free to use whatever means necessary, but I want them alive. No disintegration!".

Lord Vader


#17 nurglez

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 06:48 PM

I really love the idea of having 3 big ships. The buzzsaw shuttle with advanced sensors seems more maneuverable then the one with a FCS, but having that free target lock can be very nice.

 

I really need more experience with the shuttle to use it better, which is why I'm currently using an ogp with darth, vs having 10 points to spend on my 2 bounty hunters.

 

I love seismic charges, even at ps3 dropping 2 of them in the same turn can be very nice, especially as you can kill a 1hp ship before it gets to shoot at you :D

 

bounty hunter, seismic charges, recon

bounty hunter, seismic charges, recon

OGP, darth.

100 points.

 

While I'm using rebel captive on one of mine instead of recon, I feel recon might be better. though I'm waiting until I get a second hwk before running it as I prefer to only use cards I own.


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ships owned

Empire : 3 Firesprays, 7 Tie fighters, 1 Tie advanced, 5 Tie interceptors, 3 Tie bombers, 2 Lambdas, 2 Defenders, 2 Phantoms

Rebel scum: 4 X wings, 3 A wings, 2 B wings, 3 Y wing, 1 E wing, 2 Z's, 2 Hwk, 1 Falcon, 1 Transport, 1 Tantive


#18 Rakky Wistol

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 06:49 PM

Especially in a 3 ship list those BH's need the extra focus for defense (and unless it's adding a third hit) I will keep both for defense if I know I'm getting shot at a lot.

#19 Eruletho

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 07:13 PM

 

I like this squad quite a bit:

Bounty Hunter (33)

Bounty Hunter (33)

Omicron Group Pilot (21)

-Engine Upgrade (4)

-Gunner (5)

-Intelligence Agent (1)

-Advanced Sensors (3)

 

100 points exactly, though the intel agent could be dropped for initiative. Buzzsaw shuttle and two bounty hunters is rather tough to take down

not bad.

not sure id adv. sensors belongs but u have switched it out for FCS so u keep ur action even if u overlap or choose a red move... yeah i can see how that might be better than FCS in some situations... what action r u likely to choose when u activate sensors? target lock? focus?

 

not having Recon specialists on ur BH's seems to be thinning ur power a bit, what is the tradeoff?

 

I can see where you're coming from about recon specialist on the firesprays. I will normally focus off the advanced sensors, unless I need to use them to boost before a turn to make sure I can get an arc (for example, a boost then the hard 2 turn to keep someone in sight. Realistically, I could drop the sensors to the FCS and lose the engine upgrade and intel agent, just making sure to advance REALLY slowly and take my time coming back around, to add recon specs to both firesprays... that might be a bit more balanced defensively, but lacking in the shuttle's offense.



#20 Kelvan

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 08:53 PM

I like this squad quite a bit:
Bounty Hunter (33)
Bounty Hunter (33)
Omicron Group Pilot (21)
-Engine Upgrade (4)
-Gunner (5)
-Intelligence Agent (1)
-Advanced Sensors (3)
 
100 points exactly, though the intel agent could be dropped for initiative. Buzzsaw shuttle and two bounty hunters is rather tough to take down

not bad.
not sure id adv. sensors belongs but u have switched it out for FCS so u keep ur action even if u overlap or choose a red move... yeah i can see how that might be better than FCS in some situations... what action r u likely to choose when u activate sensors? target lock? focus?
 
not having Recon specialists on ur BH's seems to be thinning ur power a bit, what is the tradeoff?

This allows for a 135 degree turn. If planned well its almost a k turn.




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