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Carapace + Agl Caps


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#1 Cymbel

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 03:54 PM

So enforcer carapace has an agl cap of 45, I can see that, stormtrooper carapace has the same, same weight, better plates, etc., it works.

 

Carapace chestplate has a cap of 55, well, it doesn't cover as much and well, I can see that working to an extent. Then the carapace other parts (greaves, gauntlets, helmet) have no agl cap. So you could assemble a suit of 55 agl cap light carapace, with the exception of -1 head AP, +1 chest AP and 1 kg lighter to boot. The only real downside is having to make 4 different tests to get the individual parts (which is admittedly MUCH harder in the current acquisition system).



#2 Boss Gitsmasha

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 08:58 PM

I think enforcer carapace needs to be Rare instead of Very Rare and have higher max agility. Otherwise you may as well jump from Guard Flak straight to Stormtrooper carapace.


"Oomans are pink an' soft, not tough an' green like da Boyz. Dey'z all da same size too, so dey'z always arguin' about who's in charge, 'cos dere's no way o' tellin' c'ept fer badges an' ooniforms an' fings. When one o' dem wants ta lord it over da uvvers, 'e says 'I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me', or 'I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good'. Da funny fing is, 'arf of 'em believe it an' da uvver 'arf don't, so 'e has ta hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. Wot a lot o' mukkin' about if yer asks me. An' while dey'z all arguin' wiv each uvver over who's da boss, da Orks can clobber da lot."


#3 Cymbel

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 09:13 PM

Currently, it is -5 agl less than Flak, same as storm carapace, same weight as such, 4 kg more than flak

 

AP wise it fills a middle gal between 4 AP all and 6 AP all, but the flak part of the 4AP makes it less important.

 

As well as scarce for guard flak, rare for enforcer, very rare for storm



#4 GauntZero

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 05:20 AM

I think enforcer carapace needs to be Rare instead of Very Rare and have higher max agility. Otherwise you may as well jump from Guard Flak straight to Stormtrooper carapace.

 

Limits need to be stricter, not higher !

 

Stormtrooper carapace and the chestplate should get the limit 5 stricter each.


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#5 Cymbel

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 11:26 AM

Have you seen the videos of people in historically accurate fullplate (that is, not decorative fullplate or the specialty heavier jousting ones), they move with ease, doing pushups, jumping around and these are folks without much training. Ceramite and other materials are even lighter and easier to use.

 

And look at the table as is, Chainmail is EASIER to move around in then Full Plate, which is historically wrong and just a bit nonsensical. Like I listed the "Buying your own light carapace suit in 4 purchases with -1 AP head, +1 AP body" has a magically higher agl cap than enforcer light carapace.

 

Good armor shouldn't overly limit your movement and most of the values are decent as is. There are some problems (BYO Light Carapace, Feudal Plate/Chainmail, no reason to get Enforcer Carapace when Stormtrooper Carapace is around), but overall it is pretty decent.



#6 Elior

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 11:57 AM

It's not so much the mobility as it is one's speed within the armor. It's actually a combination of the two. If one watches SCA tournaments or live action armored combat with padded wooded weapons, it becomes apparent that while they can do push ups or even a cartwheel, those movements don't transition well to combat at all. Even the quickest of these competitors rarely avoids an incoming blow with their reflexes. Instead they heavily rely on using shields or parrying techniques.

 

In reality, the people with quicker reflexes tend to wear lighter armour such as leathers so that they can move more naturally with speed.


Edited by Elior, 25 January 2014 - 12:02 PM.

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#7 Cymbel

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 12:31 PM

Yep, which is why I can see a low cap, just not 25 (which impairs movement speed HEAVILY) as well as being harder to move in than chainmail.

 

But my main issue is still the wonked out values with carapace. I can wear just the breastplate for enforcer carapace, yet have a lower agl cap than a breastplate WITH the addons that essentialy make it a superior (and lighter by 1 kg) version of enforcer carapace.



#8 Elior

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 02:37 PM

That is indeed an issue.



#9 Jilaag

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Posted 26 January 2014 - 07:36 AM

I dont see the big issue with this, since Enforcer light carapace is more or less Arbites armour, i cant imagine anyone else running around in it, and therefore shouldnt be a stepping stone between flak and stormtrooper carapace. With that in mind tho, i neither see a Arbite mixing their glorious arbite armour with stormtroop carapace, that would seem unfit for an arbite, and therefore nullify the problem with mixin' enforcer carapace with stormtrooper carapace.


Edited by Jilaag, 26 January 2014 - 08:12 AM.


#10 GauntZero

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Posted 26 January 2014 - 08:16 AM

Have you seen the videos of people in historically accurate fullplate (that is, not decorative fullplate or the specialty heavier jousting ones), they move with ease, doing pushups, jumping around and these are folks without much training. Ceramite and other materials are even lighter and easier to use.

 

And look at the table as is, Chainmail is EASIER to move around in then Full Plate, which is historically wrong and just a bit nonsensical. Like I listed the "Buying your own light carapace suit in 4 purchases with -1 AP head, +1 AP body" has a magically higher agl cap than enforcer light carapace.

 

Good armor shouldn't overly limit your movement and most of the values are decent as is. There are some problems (BYO Light Carapace, Feudal Plate/Chainmail, no reason to get Enforcer Carapace when Stormtrooper Carapace is around), but overall it is pretty decent.

 

Yes, but without the armour they could move even much easier and better.

 

The cap does not limit your ag horribly. A cap on 40 is still leaving you with an Ag thats far over that of an average person, even over an average acolyte.


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#11 Cymbel

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Posted 26 January 2014 - 12:13 PM

I dont see the big issue with this, since Enforcer light carapace is more or less Arbites armour, i cant imagine anyone else running around in it, and therefore shouldnt be a stepping stone between flak and stormtrooper carapace. With that in mind tho, i neither see a Arbite mixing their glorious arbite armour with stormtroop carapace, that would seem unfit for an arbite, and therefore nullify the problem with mixin' enforcer carapace with stormtrooper carapace.

 

Well, Arbites armor is actually closer to stormtrooper carapace every time it has been written up in the books. Enforcers are the PDF of the Arbites in a sense. They do normal "cop" stuff, while the Arbites are more analog to a FBI in some senses, with superior SWAT/Riot/HRT programs and a more militant outlook. In fact for some lesser worlds, they may have a handful of Arbites just keeping a watch/working on keeping the Enforcers up to shape. As I said, Enforcers are looked down upon, they are locally raised, limited jurisdiction and scale by the Arbites in the same sense that IG look down on PDF, except in this case, the disparity between equipment and training is even greater.

 

 

Have you seen the videos of people in historically accurate fullplate (that is, not decorative fullplate or the specialty heavier jousting ones), they move with ease, doing pushups, jumping around and these are folks without much training. Ceramite and other materials are even lighter and easier to use.

 

And look at the table as is, Chainmail is EASIER to move around in then Full Plate, which is historically wrong and just a bit nonsensical. Like I listed the "Buying your own light carapace suit in 4 purchases with -1 AP head, +1 AP body" has a magically higher agl cap than enforcer light carapace.

 

Yes, but without the armour they could move even much easier and better.

 

The cap does not limit your ag horribly. A cap on 40 is still leaving you with an Ag thats far over that of an average person, even over an average acolyte.

 

 

I was talking more about full plate VS chainmail, which should be reversed, then raised a bit, maybe 5?



#12 GauntZero

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 11:54 PM

Realistic or not - I think it makes sense for most people.

Felt reality is sometimes worth more than real reality. Especially in a game.

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#13 Cymbel

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 12:46 AM

I don't see why stereotypes should be reinforced, when you can work to bring the truth.


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#14 Ghaundan

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 02:50 AM

Could you show any reference to chainmail being worse to move around in then plate? Just out of curiousity as I don't know much about that sort of stuff. Best I have is guys in late medieval plate being able to move rather easily, although not very fast and...deadliest warrior which I look more for the lolz and poor gelfigures being brutalized. Which showed early mail against late plate as far as I remember.

I agree that heavier armour should penalize agility more then it currently does. We have an arbite in his carapace and he's not really going to notice the "cap" anytime soon, if at all. Which makes the entire point moot for him. Heck, even our gunslinging desperado wouldn't feel it for quite awhile.



#15 GauntZero

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 03:09 PM

Even if chainmail might be heavier, I think its easier to move with.

I havent worn a full plate for real, but I wore chainmail. I cant imagine a plate to be more easy to move with.

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#16 GauntZero

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 03:13 PM

I don't see why stereotypes should be reinforced, when you can work to bring the truth.


You really wanna discuss about "the truth" ?

Inside the 40k universe ? ;)

Realism is bent in so many ways, that THIS really does not make the difference.

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#17 Boss Gitsmasha

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 01:27 PM

ofy7LFF.jpg


Edited by Boss Gitsmasha, 30 January 2014 - 01:29 PM.

"Oomans are pink an' soft, not tough an' green like da Boyz. Dey'z all da same size too, so dey'z always arguin' about who's in charge, 'cos dere's no way o' tellin' c'ept fer badges an' ooniforms an' fings. When one o' dem wants ta lord it over da uvvers, 'e says 'I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me', or 'I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good'. Da funny fing is, 'arf of 'em believe it an' da uvver 'arf don't, so 'e has ta hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. Wot a lot o' mukkin' about if yer asks me. An' while dey'z all arguin' wiv each uvver over who's da boss, da Orks can clobber da lot."


#18 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 02:50 PM

I don't think realism is bent in 40K particularly with these kind of things.



#19 Elior

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 04:04 PM

Chainmail is easier to move in than Full Plate because chainmail gives more mobility. For instance, a breast plate (part of plate mail) prevents the wearer from many bending movements while a chainmail shirt allows full movement of the upper torso. It's not even comparable. 

 

Anyone that has ever worn both can attest to this.


Edited by Elior, 30 January 2014 - 04:05 PM.


#20 Cymbel

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 06:59 PM

I think some realism is good, look at "A Song of Ice and Fire" and compare it to other fantasy settings. Westeros works as a place far more than other fantasy ones. Part of why I like Dark Heresy, because there is a realism inherent in the setting and it isn't just handwaving all the time.

 

http://www.metmuseum...ams/hd_aams.htm

 

I still think 25 is too low for it, I don't think it should be too high, but that becomes an old school D&D "Plate protects better so we must balance it down heavily" while a 30 would be more reasonable, it doesn't impair an average person's mobility that much, nor is it as easy to wear as more modern body armor (flak).

 

Another issue is that plate is heavier, but distributes the weight well, while chainmail "pulls" down on you with the weight concentrated on the shoulders (though a belt can reduce this somewhat, but not stop it).

 

Not to mention chainmail is weaker to piercing weapons, especially arrows (and can you imagine a gun or a flamer against the multiple holes?)






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