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WFRP 4e - how should it look?


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#121 whafrog

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 03:57 PM

Therefore, would a fantasy rpg (i.e. warhammer 4th ed) based on the SW system benefit from its popularity? will it drag some of the SW fans to it? If the answers are a Yes, then a Warhammer 4th edition with an evolved SW system will also be a possibility, it probably won't please the actual fans, but a possibility nonetheless. I say "evolved" if only because the SW system, as it is, it is not made to be played in a context where hand to hand combat is very relevant.

 

The hand-to-hand point is a good one, I would like to see a little more variation in what you can do there, perhaps through opposed rolls or other strike or defensive options.  SW is primarily a ranged weapon combat game (though I'm hoping Force and Destiny will maybe offer better dueling with the lightsaber rules).  But I do view the SW game as a whole as a revolution.  It's simple, no muss no fuss, and gets the job done.  When I bought 3E I could see the revolution coming, but it wasn't quite there yet.

 

Maybe FFG should go GURPS-like with it:  make a base/core that uses the same dice mechanic to resolve conflict, with different genres getting different skill lists, equipment, careers, talent trees, slight tweaks to certain mechanics, etc.  Custom dice sets for each genre would complete the package.



#122 Beren Eoath

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 12:51 AM

I would see it like this:

There should be a Bigginers Box and then a Core Rulebook.

The Begginers Box would have genereted characters and basic rules to play with a adventure (it will look like those for SW RPGs).

Then they should release the core rulebook - hardcover. In it players nad GM would find all that they need to start so

After it they should do expansions for every province of the Empire that would cover the history of the province, some characteristic places with plot hooks, careers special for that place and enemies that are common there and those that can be found only there. At end of each such a supplement thare would be an adventure.

 

The careers should be a mix of level upgrading and careers transitions. For example You can play up to 10th level a Zealot or at 2nd/3rd level go to an Witch Hunter. So You could stay verylong at one career and take benefits form it using it upgades/Talent tree. Or change to a more specialised career and then go up-level there using the other Talent tree. Each career would have specific for that career tree with Talents/Up-grades. Each Talent should have a different cost to buy from those more common for 100XP and those more rare or powerful for 150 XP or eaven 200XP.  Some Talents should work like the ones from Descent so to trigger it or use it You would have to suffer fatigue or stress. And some Talents would be once a day, once a battle and so on.

And careers should have some requirements to go into it like only for humans, only for wood elves, only for dwarfs ans so on. But also restrictions like You must be a 2nd/3rd or higher  level Zealot to become a Witch Hunter or a Flaggelant.

It would be a littel similar to that what You see in SW but with a lot of more options and choices to make.

This mechanic would give players many options to customise there charaster the way they want and the designers a lot of open doors to create new content. Maybe even this way we would get this so expected elven book.

 

The dice should be a litte changed to fit more into a storytelling RPG game.

 

And at the end maybe FGG should consider making two line for WFRP - the base one white to play Order  (Empire, Bretonia, Kislev, Dwarfs, Elves, Halflings) and a year or more after the first one release the second line - black to play Destruction races. Of course each line should have then there own begginers box. :P

 

This would really fit me, and maybe other players also,

Cheers and happy gaming


Edited by Beren Eoath, 10 February 2014 - 01:05 AM.


#123 whafrog

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 10:55 AM

The careers should be a mix of level upgrading...

 

No  :unsure:  No... :wacko:   NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!   :o



#124 Emirikol

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 11:28 AM

On a related note, here's how NOT to do it:  http://forum.rpg.net...Announced-Today

 

Summary of above:

* minor fixes to the rules

* recycled stuff

* company bought out a name

* company treated fans like crap

 

 

Anyways, this thread really belongs on the House Rules discussion section at this point.


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#125 Beren Eoath

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 11:34 AM

 

The careers should be a mix of level upgrading...

 

No  :unsure:  No... :wacko:   NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!   :o

 

 

Stop crying! By a mix of level up-grading I meant that characters should still have Ranks like in 3e. But Careers should look like those from SW but with options of going more specialised with Ranks. So one more time an example: You play a Zealot and You can play him up to Rank 10 gaining XP, buying special Zealot Talents and just being a Zealot. But then You reached Rank 3 and You got 3 options stay a Zealot, go to a Witch Hunter or go to a Flaggelant. Each of those has a different Talent tree and other options that make it special. So for players it will mean that You can stay on a career and just puch it to the limits or take from it what You want and fits Your character and then change it to a more specialised.

This system would mean that there is a set of basic careers and each of them has a Talent tree that lets You play up to Rank 10.  But also each of the Basics has a set of Advanced careers that also have a different Talent trees. from that point of view I see it as an option for more different characters that players can create. You can have two Soldiers but each of them would be different and could choose different paths of advancing, have different Talents and take a different specialisations.

For me having more options and choises for players to make to create a hero is the base of a good game.

That just how I would see it.

 

Cheers

 

 

PS. I do not see it as house rules but at a general disccusion and a mix of ideas. Maybe FFG will like some of them and use it it the future for the good name of WFRP.


Edited by Beren Eoath, 10 February 2014 - 11:36 AM.


#126 whafrog

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 12:42 PM

Ah, I saw "level upgrading" and my mind went to D20...



#127 Beren Eoath

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 12:53 PM

Ah, I saw "level upgrading" and my mind went to D20...

 

No, that would be a disaster. No d20 leveling.

Just as i wrote, a mix of Ranks from WFRP 3e and SW career system but with basic and advanced careers.

Cheers



#128 GmMichael

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 11:30 AM

On a related note, here's how NOT to do it:  http://forum.rpg.net...Announced-Today

 

Summary of above:

* minor fixes to the rules

* recycled stuff

* company bought out a name

* company treated fans like crap

 

 

Anyways, this thread really belongs on the House Rules discussion section at this point.

I'd also settle for a sticky or separate category where the Usual Culprits could perpetually discuss 4, 5, and 6E   :P

 

Also...yeah....poor Earthdawn. 


Edited by GmMichael, 11 February 2014 - 11:34 AM.


#129 Bloodtooth

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 12:00 PM

 

On a related note, here's how NOT to do it:  http://forum.rpg.net...Announced-Today

 

Summary of above:

* minor fixes to the rules

* recycled stuff

* company bought out a name

* company treated fans like crap

 

 

Anyways, this thread really belongs on the House Rules discussion section at this point.

I'd also settle for a sticky or separate category where the Usual Culprits could perpetually discuss 4, 5, and 6E   :P

 

Also...yeah....poor Earthdawn. 

 

 

No good having a go at people.

 

4th Edition will happen probably not this year, more likely 2015 or 2016. Unlikely that FFG will listen to anything said here for the initial Beta, though they will almost certainly do a Beta.



#130 Yivrael

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 05:55 PM

 

 

On a related note, here's how NOT to do it:  http://forum.rpg.net...Announced-Today

 

Summary of above:

* minor fixes to the rules

* recycled stuff

* company bought out a name

* company treated fans like crap

 

 

Anyways, this thread really belongs on the House Rules discussion section at this point.

I'd also settle for a sticky or separate category where the Usual Culprits could perpetually discuss 4, 5, and 6E   :P

 

Also...yeah....poor Earthdawn. 

 

 

No good having a go at people.

 

4th Edition will happen probably not this year, more likely 2015 or 2016. Unlikely that FFG will listen to anything said here for the initial Beta, though they will almost certainly do a Beta.

 

Should be interesting to see if they actually do remake the game.


Edited by Yivrael, 22 February 2014 - 07:41 PM.


#131 GmMichael

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 09:51 PM

I don't know... I guess my final input here is....4E...great, whenever, whatever. As far as FFG in general, I support them and enjoy their games and that's the only thing that really matters to me, period. If I ever find myself in the position that many of you seem to be in, where I'm just unhappy with large volumes of the company's work, I think I'll just own up to the fact that the problem is probably me, and simply take my money somewhere else and not perpetually bludgeon the web with my woes. Good gaming to all. As you were.



#132 Beren Eoath

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 01:27 AM

Yes, the thing that happened to WFRP is not good. I think that even GW has lost themself in WFRP, and that makes the biggest problem. Fist thing that should hapen is GW to give a more free hand to FFG on the setting so they can create more materials. The reprinting thig would be a mistake, they should create new content and expand those that where in previous editions.

Second a beta would be a nice thing to see. But not a pdf but a printed book. SW has betas printed but DH 2e did not - for me that was a mistake. A mistake becouse the printed book is , for me, a lot easier to use on a session and gives You that feeling that You got a real thing in your hands. Besides pdfs are easy to pirate and when people like to steal rights then pdf make it easier for them.

3rd a new edition should be only printed without pdfs. For the same reason as above. And t should then get a Begginers Box so everyone could try it without having to buy the core rulebook.

 

The 4e, if it will come, will be I think avaliable as beta at the end of this year but more likely next one.

 

FFG created a good game with WFRP 3e but it had to many experimetal mechanics. They improved that with SW so the game is easier to play and run without having to buy a large table. If FFg will make a 4e and can only hope that they learned from there mistakes and make out of it a excelent game.

 

Cheers and happy gaming (in any edition You play)



#133 Beren Eoath

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 05:47 AM

I just readed a topic about how big or strong monsters never miss. This is another problem to be fixed if a new edition will come. It shoudl have more stats like WFRP 1e or 2e had, maybe not that much but close to that. This would give a even bigger range of charcters and enemies. Thre could be fast charasters that are weak but hit more times there target, or enemies that could be strong but clumsy and had a smaller chance to hit PC.

And one more thing that I think i missed in this editon are places of hits. In 3e having a helmet does not give You nothing special, or having armour only on the right arm. In previuos edition every hit had a location it hits. So when You had a helmet and the hit was in the head You took less damage. Maybe they should consider also so mechanics for that.

And of course I do not know why in 3e the equipment list is so short? There should be lists, tables with a lot of equipment. In 2ed, if I remamber good, there was a single book dedicated only to equipment, trade, armours, weapons and a lot more. Why in 3e was nothing like that, I do not know?

 

Cheers


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#134 Keeop

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 08:39 AM

I just readed a topic about how big or strong monsters never miss. This is another problem to be fixed if a new edition will come. It shoudl have more stats like WFRP 1e or 2e had, maybe not that much but close to that. This would give a even bigger range of charcters and enemies. Thre could be fast charasters that are weak but hit more times there target, or enemies that could be strong but clumsy and had a smaller chance to hit PC.

And one more thing that I think i missed in this editon are places of hits. In 3e having a helmet does not give You nothing special, or having armour only on the right arm. In previuos edition every hit had a location it hits. So when You had a helmet and the hit was in the head You took less damage. Maybe they should consider also so mechanics for that.

And of course I do not know why in 3e the equipment list is so short? There should be lists, tables with a lot of equipment. In 2ed, if I remamber good, there was a single book dedicated only to equipment, trade, armours, weapons and a lot more. Why in 3e was nothing like that, I do not know?

 

Cheers

This is pretty easy stuff to grasp, imo. This is an abstract narrative system. What you describe is more in line with a simulator such as Pathfinder or Shadowrun. Neither this game or Star Wars are setup to tackle the mechanics in this manner. Same goes for the equipment list. They are even more up front and clear on this, detailing the reason for the short list in the game text itself.... You get a generic entry for "weapon x". the GM can then take that baseline stat and quickly stat up an item to make available to the players. One chart quickly takes care of the business that other systems spend chapters handling.

 

I love simulators. I paid 30 bucks for a Shadowrun book stuffed full of charts and lists and 5000 weapons that are exactly the same outside of model number and a +1 or -1 here or there. That's great for that system, I suppose. I don't see a reason for it in 3E.

 

The more I've made it through this drek the more I'm understanding your point of view though. I think you really like 2E. I like 2E as well. But if our combined vision for 4E is nothing more than a rehashed 2E then what's the point? I think I agree with Jay that when this comes up in the future I'm going to have to consider it a 2E House Rule conversation.

 

The efforts to keep this wreck at the top of the forums is quite admirable. I hope everyone is satisfied.


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#135 Bloodtooth

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 10:41 AM

 

I just readed a topic about how big or strong monsters never miss. This is another problem to be fixed if a new edition will come. It shoudl have more stats like WFRP 1e or 2e had, maybe not that much but close to that. This would give a even bigger range of charcters and enemies. Thre could be fast charasters that are weak but hit more times there target, or enemies that could be strong but clumsy and had a smaller chance to hit PC.

And one more thing that I think i missed in this editon are places of hits. In 3e having a helmet does not give You nothing special, or having armour only on the right arm. In previuos edition every hit had a location it hits. So when You had a helmet and the hit was in the head You took less damage. Maybe they should consider also so mechanics for that.

And of course I do not know why in 3e the equipment list is so short? There should be lists, tables with a lot of equipment. In 2ed, if I remamber good, there was a single book dedicated only to equipment, trade, armours, weapons and a lot more. Why in 3e was nothing like that, I do not know?

 

Cheers

This is pretty easy stuff to grasp, imo. This is an abstract narrative system. What you describe is more in line with a simulator such as Pathfinder or Shadowrun. Neither this game or Star Wars are setup to tackle the mechanics in this manner. Same goes for the equipment list. They are even more up front and clear on this, detailing the reason for the short list in the game text itself.... You get a generic entry for "weapon x". the GM can then take that baseline stat and quickly stat up an item to make available to the players. One chart quickly takes care of the business that other systems spend chapters handling.

 

I love simulators. I paid 30 bucks for a Shadowrun book stuffed full of charts and lists and 5000 weapons that are exactly the same outside of model number and a +1 or -1 here or there. That's great for that system, I suppose. I don't see a reason for it in 3E.

 

The more I've made it through this drek the more I'm understanding your point of view though. I think you really like 2E. I like 2E as well. But if our combined vision for 4E is nothing more than a rehashed 2E then what's the point? I think I agree with Jay that when this comes up in the future I'm going to have to consider it a 2E House Rule conversation.

 

The efforts to keep this wreck at the top of the forums is quite admirable. I hope everyone is satisfied.

 

 

Actually he is not arguing for 2nd edition at all, though that may be your interpretation.

 

This thread and the 3.5 thread on the House rules thread are a complete waste of time. FFG have only got two options:

 

1. A Fourth edition that may be based on what they have learnt from SW but will be another major step onwards, otherwise it will be a waste of time.

 

2. FFG do nothing at all with WFRP until either they choose not to renew the license or GW takes it back off them.

 

Those people hoping for a rehash of 2nd or 3rd edition are deluding themselves. Both are dead from FFG and GW's point of view. I am afraid your only hope would be if GW take the license back and issue it to some firm who does want to do a rehash, though I do not think even GW are that stupid.



#136 Beren Eoath

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 12:39 PM

I'm not a great fan of 2e but I liked that it covered so much of the Old World. Not only Empire, but Bretonia, Kislev, Chaos Wastes and even Skaven. And it's sad that 3e did not have so much material about all that - not a complete reprint but with new stuff.

When 3e come it was a blast for me. I was excited and took a lot of time playing it and enjoying. But with every expansion something seemed wrong, like the idea of max 3 Rank characters, too much cards (many of those never come to the table). And the biggest problem was that when I wanted to play anywhere I needed a lot of space.

When I would have to say what of those was better I would say - I liked 3e better but I can't get of the feeling that it's not well tested.

 

About the dead of WFRP 3e - noone can confirm it but looking at lack of news and support it looks like it. The licence ends this year. Let's hope that FFG will clear the situation, continue the licence and bring new life to WFRP.

 

Cheers


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#137 Keeop

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 12:55 PM

 

 

I just readed a topic about how big or strong monsters never miss. This is another problem to be fixed if a new edition will come. It shoudl have more stats like WFRP 1e or 2e had, maybe not that much but close to that. This would give a even bigger range of charcters and enemies. Thre could be fast charasters that are weak but hit more times there target, or enemies that could be strong but clumsy and had a smaller chance to hit PC.

And one more thing that I think i missed in this editon are places of hits. In 3e having a helmet does not give You nothing special, or having armour only on the right arm. In previuos edition every hit had a location it hits. So when You had a helmet and the hit was in the head You took less damage. Maybe they should consider also so mechanics for that.

And of course I do not know why in 3e the equipment list is so short? There should be lists, tables with a lot of equipment. In 2ed, if I remamber good, there was a single book dedicated only to equipment, trade, armours, weapons and a lot more. Why in 3e was nothing like that, I do not know?

 

Cheers

This is pretty easy stuff to grasp, imo. This is an abstract narrative system. What you describe is more in line with a simulator such as Pathfinder or Shadowrun. Neither this game or Star Wars are setup to tackle the mechanics in this manner. Same goes for the equipment list. They are even more up front and clear on this, detailing the reason for the short list in the game text itself.... You get a generic entry for "weapon x". the GM can then take that baseline stat and quickly stat up an item to make available to the players. One chart quickly takes care of the business that other systems spend chapters handling.

 

I love simulators. I paid 30 bucks for a Shadowrun book stuffed full of charts and lists and 5000 weapons that are exactly the same outside of model number and a +1 or -1 here or there. That's great for that system, I suppose. I don't see a reason for it in 3E.

 

The more I've made it through this drek the more I'm understanding your point of view though. I think you really like 2E. I like 2E as well. But if our combined vision for 4E is nothing more than a rehashed 2E then what's the point? I think I agree with Jay that when this comes up in the future I'm going to have to consider it a 2E House Rule conversation.

 

The efforts to keep this wreck at the top of the forums is quite admirable. I hope everyone is satisfied.

 

 

Actually he is not arguing for 2nd edition at all, though that may be your interpretation.

 

This thread and the 3.5 thread on the House rules thread are a complete waste of time. FFG have only got two options:

 

1. A Fourth edition that may be based on what they have learnt from SW but will be another major step onwards, otherwise it will be a waste of time.

 

2. FFG do nothing at all with WFRP until either they choose not to renew the license or GW takes it back off them.

 

Those people hoping for a rehash of 2nd or 3rd edition are deluding themselves. Both are dead from FFG and GW's point of view. I am afraid your only hope would be if GW take the license back and issue it to some firm who does want to do a rehash, though I do not think even GW are that stupid.

 

It is my interpretation because we have this conversation about twice a year. Sorry for the lack of context there. Beren and I actually have a lot more in common than a quick breeze-through of our banter would suggest :)

 

I don't disagree with your other points, though. WFRP with an EotE skin is a step backwards so I don't expect it. I'm actually hoping that #2 happens and the wfrp rpg line disappears for a while and lets the dust settle from the heavy narrative/light crunch offerings that are frankly dominating the market right now. It's easy to forget the wargamming roots with this setting and I am actually in agreement that a WFRP game needs teeth, be that in the form of medium to heavy rulesets or components. This has never seemed like a "sit under the tree and tell campfire stories" kind of game although I can appreciate if that's the kind of thing you'd like to see for the setting.

 

Thankfully, we all know what's best for FFG :)  Lol.

 

Cheers


Edited by Keeop, 12 February 2014 - 06:26 PM.


#138 Beren Eoath

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 04:33 AM

I think we all agre that a reprint of 2e or conversion into SW skin would be not right. WFRP need something more to catch the feeling of the setting. I'm very ciriuos how it will go on and what FFG does with the licence. Will they extend it or not? This is the last year of the licence so we will see, let's hope FFG will annouce something on there page.

It would be nice if they would continue the licence for both warhammer worlds or even extend it to making miniaturesso they could do a new Warhammer Quest edition. ;)

 

Cheers

 

PS. Of course they could also do a Warhammer Quest card game and use the mechanics from WFRP 3e. This could be interesting.



#139 ragnar63

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 05:37 AM

Looking at an article on the GW stock fall thread, it is obvious that GW are not going to take back the franchise because they make far too much money out of FFG for doing very little.

 

The other obvious point unfortunately is that GW make too much money out of IP, so they are not going to loosen the IP reins at all, which are very tight as I know from friends who have done freelance work for FFG on WFRP. The latter is almost certainly why we have not had an elven supplement and why we will probably never get one. Same for Araby, Tilea, Estalia and Sartosa. Even Brettonia is unlikely simply because the Brettonian army book is way over due and they certainly are not going to let anybody do a WFRP Brettonian book until they have got their Army book sorted.

 

Why this applies to WFRP and not he 40K stuff I do not know, but I do not think we will see FFG doing the WFRP equivalent of SW Suns of Fortune (Corellian supplement) anytime in the future. It may be that WFRP is just too much trouble now and we will not see anything at all for the forseeable future or at least nothing with any substance, which a lot of us would like to see.

 

Sorry to be depressing but GW and FFG are only going to do things which makes financial sense to them, and at the moment that means WFRP fans are going to be left sorely disappointed for the forseeable future. If FFG do produce anything new it is likely to be very fluff light, much like 3rd edition.

 

I really hope I am wrong!!


Edited by ragnar63, 13 February 2014 - 05:44 AM.

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#140 Beren Eoath

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 06:55 AM

I do really hope you are wrong Ragnar63, but there is too much truth in those things You have wrote.

I don't understand why in W40k FFg has almost free hands and can create what they want. Make new sectors and produce new supplements and with WFRP they have there hands tied.  This is wierd if not sick.

GW should think really hard on that becouse in 2e they did give the BL the oportunity to create new content they way they wanted. It was nice becouse it looked like fans where satysfied and the game did well. GW should give FFG free way to create content for WFRP but it's a dream I think. GW is not interested in fans of the setting but on money that's the only thing what they are interested in.  Even looking at there GW site it looks like WF is on the end of the list of there interest. That's a sad thing.

 

Cheers






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