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WFRP 4e - how should it look?


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#261 Yepesnopes

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 08:33 AM

How do you see Ars Magica and Runequest different from D&D?

 

Ufff, where to start.

 

They are totally different. To start with, games like D&D put a huge stress on the character levelling up, getting better, with more powers, more awesome stuff, magical objects etc. In games like the ones I mention this does not happen. Characters progress at maximum by rising skills. There are no awesome talents that allow your dual sword wielding Halfling to perform a Whirlwind Diablo II style and hit all the engaged enemies (yes I talk about the Warhammer 3 card). Therefore, the players put the stress of the game somewhere else. On games like the ones I said, you will hardly ever find threads in their forums like "Dwarf Ironbroken", or "A player at my table is a munchkin", or "Soak monster", or "Paladin class overpowered" etc, because this things don't happen.

 

There is the issue of "Balance" introduced by D&D, I guess brought from PC games. It is a rpg, not a computer game, balance of what? The balance is found when all players have equal fun on the table and this won't happen necessarily because all the classes are balanced in terms of power. Balance of fun comes if players equally participate and intervene on the story narrated by the GM. Games like RQ don't give a @#&$ about balance, actually in Ars Magica the different type of characters are unbalanced in power on purpose, yet the guy playing with a grog will have equal fan as the guy next to him playing the powerful magician.

 

Buff, this is a loooong list of differences. I stop here, this is better discussed with a beer in a bar. It does not have too much sense to write.

 

Yepes


Edited by Yepesnopes, 15 August 2014 - 08:34 AM.

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#262 Herr Arnulfe

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 10:18 AM

I went poking through these threads trying to get a feel for what an average group looked like (especially for Enemy Within). It was informal and anecdotal, but what I observed was the recurring party composition in thread after thread rarely deviated from:

  • Some sort of wizard, most often a Bright Wizard
  • Some sort of priest, most often a Sigmarite
  • Some sort of dwarf-only career, most often a Troll-Slayer
  • And a fourth character that was usually less like a D&D archetype and more like the warhammer working stiff you'd expect of earlier editions

I wonder whether this is a case of people playing the game as the publisher "tells them to"? Considering the number of magic card expansions for 3e, it would certainly be understandable for players to assume that parties are expected to include a caster or two. ToS and RoS for 2e probably boosted the number of wizards and priests in adventuring parties too, although it still used random career tables so players would have to lobby the GM to play a caster or work it into their advance scheme. The 1e Realms of Sorcery supplement had comparably little effect on party composition, partly because it was released so late in the product cycle, and partly because wizards never survived long enough to cast level 5-6 spells, so players didn't plan for using Colour Magic. :)

 

Perhaps if a hypothetical 4e offered Rogues & Cities and Rangers & Woodlands splatbooks instead of rehashing magic and religion yet again, we'd suddenly see a spike in the number of scout and scoundrel type PCs?


Edited by Herr Arnulfe, 15 August 2014 - 10:34 AM.

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#263 Beren Eoath

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Posted 16 August 2014 - 07:35 AM

A revolution is comming to WFB - Nagash will rise once again! A new edition of WFB is comming and some timeline changes. And looking at some licence changes that FFG made for SW there is even more possibilities of a new Warhammer Fantasy game. Waiting for something official to show up but I can see it comming if not this year then next.

 If a WFRP 4e will come from FFG thaen looking at there expirience from WFRP 3e and SW RPG I can imagine that could be a cool game. I have written about the best part of WFRP 3e that I would love to see taken into 4e so I will not do it again. I do not care what other will say and think but I will keep my fingers crossed to see a new edition from FFG. And please FFG make it sooner then later!



#264 Carcosa

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Posted 16 August 2014 - 10:10 AM

Yepes.

 

I would suggest that those differences are more an artefact of playstyle more than anything else. If your players want to play a high power game and only care about the next magic item or level, that's not going to change just because you use a different system. Sure, D&D is far more......geared towards powergaming  over more roleplay oriented systems such as Ars Magica, CoC etc, but It is entirely possible to not munchkin D&D if your players are willing to do it.


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#265 Emirikol

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Posted 16 August 2014 - 12:23 PM

5e has a non-escalatory skill system.  We'll see if it makes on iota of difference in a culture of "dungeon crawls=plots" idiocy.  I'm going to give it a shot, but I'm not optimistic.  Dungeon crawls bore me to flakkn tears and D&D hasn't had a non-dungeon crawl adventure in too long..and the basic set is just more of the same:

 

bandit attack

dungeon crawl

repeat



#266 Yepesnopes

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Posted 16 August 2014 - 03:27 PM

Sure, D&D is far more......geared towards powergaming  over more roleplay oriented systems such as Ars Magica, CoC etc,

 

That is precisely my point.


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#267 Carcosa

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Posted 16 August 2014 - 05:45 PM

@Yepes

Sure, I agree, D&D is more geared to hack and slash, but that does not mean you have to run it that way. Ravenloft and Masque of the red death were more geared to more RP than Dice rolls, and they used the 2nd ed rules fine,


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#268 GMmL

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Posted 17 August 2014 - 07:51 AM

I recommend checking out Murder in Baldur's Gate if you'd like to see a great change-of-pace for the D&D line. I'm going to give 5e a GM-shot at some point next spring. Most of my tables have switched to New Guard Campfire Storytime gaming so I think they'll pick it right up. We'll see if it sticks or not. I'm mostly expecting it to be a small thing we do in-between WFRP and Star Wars campaigns.



#269 ragnar63

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 04:26 AM

A revolution is comming to WFB - Nagash will rise once again! A new edition of WFB is comming and some timeline changes. And looking at some licence changes that FFG made for SW there is even more possibilities of a new Warhammer Fantasy game. Waiting for something official to show up but I can see it comming if not this year then next.

 

 

Don't get your hopes up just yet, Beren! Even if the speculation about the 9th edition of WFB is right think about what is being said about the new setting. Nagash reborn and apocalypse coming to the Old World! To me that does not sound like a good setting for a RPG, not unless your idea of a good RPG session is 95% killing or being killed by Undead. The last time that GW went down this route with WFB, was with the Storm of Chaos in the mid to late 90's. They also had the license for WFRP and they set that AFTER the Storm of Chaos when they did 2nd edition.

 

The problem with the above scenario is that GW no longer do WFRP, FFG have the licence for at least a couple more years. FFG are going to have to wait to see where GW go with the Nagash Reborn scenario before they can start planning for the aftermath. They then have to spin their ideas past GW to get their approval for canonicity. If GW go trully apocalyptic then there may be nothing for FFG to try and create a 4th edition around, in terms of setting, except one big, long fight. Remember GW are producing a setting for wargames not RPG's, so the result of the Nagash Reborn may not be conducive to RPG's. 

 

FFG are going to be busy with the Star Wars Trilogy of games and with the second edition of Dark Heresy at least until the end of 2015, maybe longer. By then they will also have to be making a decision on whether they want to continue with the license for both Fantasy and 40K from GW. Maybe by then GW will have decided on how the Nagash story unfolds and FFG can start to decide on how they want to proceed. The long and the short is that IF FFG do plan on doing a 4th edition, we will probably not see anything, even a Beta test, before 2016. And I am fraid that IF, is a very big one as I am not sure that FFG have any intention of doing a 4th edition in any shape or form 


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#270 wlybrand

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 07:46 AM

I think one thing that is clear (post Gen-con) is that FFG is, for the majority of its capabilities, focused on the Star Wars license. This makes sense given its uncertain future with new movies, Disney, etc, as well as given its success with X-Wing. What is interesting though is how they have leveraged other systems for their Star Wars games... specifically WFRP into Star Wars RPG (dice/narrative mechanic), and now Descent into Imperial Assault.

 

It seems like FFG will need to fully exhaust their Star Wars RPG line before they are able to turn and commit again to Warhammer Fantasy. Dark Heresy is the one exception... I'm not sure how or why they are continuing to support it but it clearly must be selling well. 

 

Warhammer Fantasy is my favorite license/setting, so I m holding out that they will find more ways to focus on it. They have flipped the Fantasy card game now into 40k, which is great (but not fantasy!). I would really love to see them revisit WFRP given their learning with Star Wars RPG's, or extend WF into mechanics like Descent or LotR Card Game.



#271 GMmL

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 09:48 AM

I've been watching the Fantasy board/card games for a while mostly out of simple interest. Invasion seemed to crash before it flew, and Chaos in the Old World gets high praise in certain circles but I'm curious how profitable it was for them. I recently grabbed a core box of Diskwars and that's alot of fun, actually. I suppose to a degree they can kind of gauge the interest in the Fantasy line by testing the waters with fairly low investment titles. Profit-wise the sci-fi angle really makes sense for them now. With both 40k and Star Wars under their belt they've not only got great, proven franchises but very little genre competition. They at the very least don't have to wrestle with Wizards or Paizo for the rpg sword & sorcery market. There's a small, devout, niche group of us here that love our WFRP but realistically we're a drop in the bucket compared to the masses that are buying into other properties. I think WFRP would best be served by a smaller production house at this point.


Edited by GMmL, 18 August 2014 - 09:50 AM.


#272 r_b_bergstrom

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 10:12 AM

I actually suspect that the official announcement heavily implies that FFG is secretly working on a 4th Edition. The actual wording only lightly implies it, but what makes the heavier implication is just the fact that they actually announced an end to the 3rd Ed line. They went to the trouble of officially calling it done, and putting together a final errata and index, despite there being no money in that effort.

 

Compare that to some of their other neglected RPG lines. Fireborn and Grimm don't have official posts announcing that their dead, but neither game has had a new product release in a lot longer than the time frame that WFRP sat idle.  FFG's standard operating procedure is to never call an RPG dead. Why have they departed from their usual pattern after more than a year of silence? Have we really been flooding their customer service lines with that many "what's up with WFRP" inqueries?

 

As I see it, the only benefit to announcing this game's end now is that it softens the later blow if and when they announce 4th Ed. IIRC, 2nd Ed fans were very upset and alienated by the sudden transition from 2nd to 3rd Ed, so FFG may have learned a lesson there. This could be about smoothing that transition and retaining customers during the 3rd to 4th reboot.

 

Other than that, FFG doesn't really gain much by announcing the cancellation of 3rd. If anything, calling "time of death" on WFRP it will hurt their back sales of excess stock. The press release limits FFG's future publishing options: it's giving up on the idea of compilations, reprints, improved PDFs with the cards, PODs or Kickstarters. Basically, it's walking away with money on the table. (It's possible they've decided the money is too little to be worth pursuing, but again I ask why is that worth announcing for WFRP and not worth announcing for Fireborn or Grimm?) The press release is bad news for those who loved 3rd. The announcement itself doesn't earn FFG new customers. It doesn't particularly appease people who disliked 3rd, they're not going to suddenly buy more FFG product as a result of this announcement (but they might buy a 4th Ed if it were a big departure from 3rd). If the WFRP license indeed comes as a package deal (they get it alongside the WH40K RPG license, or attached to the license for Warhammer Diskwars etc), then this announcement gains them nothing.

 

They've got two successful alternatives to 3rd Ed waiting in the wings (Dark Heresy and Edge Of The Empire) so the heavy lifting of building a new WFRP is basically already done.  I'd be really surprised if they don't move on a 4th Ed within a year.


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#273 socratim

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 10:23 AM

I thought their license for Warhammer-Rpgs is running out this year... at least this was said in a German podcast.



#274 GMmL

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 11:21 AM

Guess we'll just have to wait it out and see. I'll have no money for it, personally... but I am hopeful that the setting gets a healthy shot in the arm.



#275 Roland the Red

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 03:17 PM

Dungeon crawls bore me to flakkn tears and D&D hasn't had a non-dungeon crawl adventure in too long..and the basic set is just more of the same:

GMml mentioned it above, but I want to chime in too: Murder in Baldur's Gate is a Good Adventure, you should really check it out. That said, I saw your post on enworld re: D&D and XP, and Dungeon crawls...and yes, D&D is basically a skinner box for XP pellets via killing monsters. But I have seen (less of late, but certainly early on) posts here that try to steer people away from that mindset when playing WHFRP. I think that mindset is popular (because of D&D and video games, to be sure) and certainly a draw to large numbers. I think D&D 5E is doing a pretty good job of keeping the door open to other styles of play. Kill for XP mindset works for D&D...at first, but it does get old (as we get old) but I think there is enough there (or rather, a lack of hard-coding that makes it possible) to play a more role playing. The test will be the DMG and where the alternative play emphasis is. There will be a 4E-esque alternative which would be in a direction I think you would find bothersome, but as long as there is a pride of place alternative for more storytelling, I think thats enough for now. We need more DMs to "show the way" not WotC to hard-wire it.

 

Oh yeah, and WHRP 3? Bummer...But at least I got most of the stuff I wanted (missing the adventurers kit? the one with the rat catcher...) and some PODs, so I can always play.

 

My problem with WHFRP 1st-3rd has been: I buy the stuff, but I can't get people to play. So I have stuff I never use. Very frustrating. If 4th does come down the pipe, I would rather see something less canon-correct but more popular than canon-correct and unpopular. Those of you who would cringe at a witch being pals with a witch hunter might have to live with a version that, by RAW, allowed such a party, even if your table sigmar-hammered that to oblivion. If it meant more sales, more player, I think that would be a fair compromise (a big if, I know)


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#276 GMmL

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 05:51 AM

As a sidethought/afterthought... D&D xp can now be optionally rewarded at story milestones instead of monster xp. I plan on experimenting with this pretty heavily. Kill all the dungeon critters you want, but know that the xp is actually tied to the story and not the individual kills. I'm intrigued. For urban/social adventures like Murder in Baldur's Gate that's a fairly big deal, at least in terms of what we've all come to expect from that franchise. I'm going to defy The Grognard Creed and approach it with an open mind. 


Edited by GMmL, 19 August 2014 - 05:52 AM.





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