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How does ranged defense apply against Move?


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#1 yeti1069

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 09:34 PM

Are the Setback dice added to the pool when you roll Discipline to move the object?

 

Are Difficulty dice added based on your range? Being engaged?

 

Can you add Boost dice associated with ranged attacks? Ranged (light) or Ranged (heavy)?



#2 Krieger22

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 06:21 AM

I'd say ranged defence would apply if you were trying to hit someone with the object you're moving. Beyond that I don't know, I have no Force-sensitive players and haven't really studied the Force powers that closely.



#3 kaosoe

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 07:38 AM

This actually came up last night. There is no RAW answer. Once the user succeeds the discipline check the attack is resolved as if it was a ranged attack. But at that point there's nothing left to roll. So I ended up throwing in the setback dice due to ranged defense as suggested by Krieger22. I couldn't justify the adversary talent affecting the check since discipline is not listed as a combat talent.

 

I would love to get an official ruling on that though. it's been on my mind long before we ran that encounter.


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#4 Logan Ambrose

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 07:59 AM

It is a ranged attack with a base difficulty equal to the silhouette of the object being thrown (silhouette 0 has no difficulty but then it only does 5 damage). After that you add in ranged defense setback dice, then upgrade the pool as dictated by the Adversary talent or player talents like dodge or side step. Quick and simple ;)
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#5 EldritchFire

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 09:08 AM

Are the Setback dice added to the pool when you roll Discipline to move the object?

 
Not sure what setback dice you are referring to. If you're referring to things like cover or other setback dice associated with ranged attacks, then yes, "This attack follows all the rules for ranged attacks, such as ranged defense and aiming", CRB 284.
 

Are Difficulty dice added based on your range? Being engaged?

 

Nope to both. The difficulty is "equal to the silhouette of the object being thrown," (CRB 284).
 

Can you add Boost dice associated with ranged attacks?

 

Yes, see "setback dice" above.
 

Ranged (light) or Ranged (heavy)?

 

Neither, it's a Discipline skill check (CRB 284).

 

Whenever in doubt, always check the full write-up for the Force powers in the Force chapter. Just like for talents, they can't fit all the rules in the Force power trees.

 

-EF


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#6 kaosoe

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 10:37 AM

Good call. I remember reading that and like many rules, they leak out of my ears once it actually comes up.


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#7 yeti1069

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 12:29 PM


 

Whenever in doubt, always check the full write-up for the Force powers in the Force chapter. Just like for talents, they can't fit all the rules in the Force power trees.

 

-EF

 

OH, I did read that, and more than once, but it's unclear to me (and apparently some others) whether all the ranged combat stuff gets stacked on the Discipline check, or if there is some other check to be made. It mentions no other, but it's kind of weird that the difficulty of the check is set by the silhouette, and not by the normal ranged attack rules, since it reads that the check is made following all the rules for ranged combat, which include things like base difficulty for distance. That's left rather vague.



#8 Logan Ambrose

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 12:35 PM

I would suspect that the use of silhouette rather than range is because the accuracy of the attack is based on the attackers control of the force.
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#9 EldritchFire

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 01:34 PM

 


 

Whenever in doubt, always check the full write-up for the Force powers in the Force chapter. Just like for talents, they can't fit all the rules in the Force power trees.

 

-EF

 

OH, I did read that, and more than once, but it's unclear to me (and apparently some others) whether all the ranged combat stuff gets stacked on the Discipline check, or if there is some other check to be made. It mentions no other, but it's kind of weird that the difficulty of the check is set by the silhouette, and not by the normal ranged attack rules, since it reads that the check is made following all the rules for ranged combat, which include things like base difficulty for distance. That's left rather vague.

 

 

I don't see it as vague at all. Prior to saying it "follows all the rules for ranged attacks" it spells out the difficulty: "equal to the silhouette of the object being thrown," not increased by the silhouette of the object thrown.

 

I think it's because smaller objects are easier to manipulate and harder to avoid. If you take the amount of force it takes to throw a small car (like a SmartCar) and apply the same force to something the size of a baseball, it's going to go faster, right? Force equals mass time acceleration, right? So the same force and smaller mass means higher acceleration.

 

I know, bringing real-world physics into this isn't the smartest thing, but it's how I see it.

 

-EF


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#10 Dbuntu

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 03:42 PM

The real question is what if you are using Move on the target in defense. Not throwing stuff at him, but like picking him up and throwing him.


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#11 EldritchFire

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 03:50 PM

If you're picking up and throwing someone in cover? Hell yes I'd give him the cover!

 

-EF



#12 Dbuntu

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 04:59 PM

But cover from what? The cover doesn't benefit him in that scenario; it is not blocking anything. Maybe it's obscuring vision, but we know that the Force doesn't require you to see a target. In fact, we are told to not trust our eyes because they can deceive us. 



#13 EldritchFire

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 05:07 PM

Cover from the "ranged touch attack" if you will. It might not require you to see your target, but I have no evidence that line of sight is not required. So if it's dark or there is a dense fog, I'd also give the target the benefit of concealment in addition to cover.

 

I'm basing this off of "This attack follows all the rules for ranged attacks". Cover and concealment are part of the rules for ranged attacks.

 

I have no in-genre or game text reasons to back up my claim. It's just my feeling on the matter. IMO, YMMV, FWIW, OMGBBQ, etc.

 

-EF



#14 Dbuntu

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 05:22 PM

I was asking those questions more in jest than anything, but it does sort of raise the question. The Move ability describes it as if  you can do whatever you'd be able to do with your hands. If you were lifting an inanimate object you would definitely not give the object cover. At least I wouldn't think so. There's plenty of lore detailing that line of sight isn't really an important factor with the Force. You don't see it; you feel it. Luke has a vision of Han and Leia at Bespin and that's a hell of a lot of cover between Yoda's hut and Cloud City. 

 

Then what about Moving the target's cover? What if he's behind a box and I'm pushing the box over on him? Is he really benefiting from that cover if it's suddenly flying at his face?


Edited by Dbuntu, 21 January 2014 - 05:23 PM.


#15 Revanchist7

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 05:45 PM

The benefit from cover could be him grabbing on for dear life.

Any other weird stuff you might do is for a creative GM to decide.
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#16 EldritchFire

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 05:53 PM

I was asking those questions more in jest than anything, but it does sort of raise the question. The Move ability describes it as if  you can do whatever you'd be able to do with your hands. If you were lifting an inanimate object you would definitely not give the object cover. At least I wouldn't think so. There's plenty of lore detailing that line of sight isn't really an important factor with the Force. You don't see it; you feel it. Luke has a vision of Han and Leia at Bespin and that's a hell of a lot of cover between Yoda's hut and Cloud City. 

 

Then what about Moving the target's cover? What if he's behind a box and I'm pushing the box over on him? Is he really benefiting from that cover if it's suddenly flying at his face?

 

 

The Move power and Foresee powers are two different things, and I'm discussion Move specifically here. Foresee has its own special rules in AoR.

 

Also, manipulating an object like you would with your hand is a distinct and separate use of Move than attacking with it.

 

If you move the target's cover, I'd still give them the cover bonus because as the cover is moving, they might have enough time to roll aside or something. I mean, cover bonus is 1 setback die (I don't see "superior cover" that grants 2 setback dice as moveable). It's not worth arguing over with your player/GM, right?

 

-EF

 

P.S. With our avatars being what they are, does that mean we're in a training dogfight scenario? lol



#17 yeti1069

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 06:54 PM

This discussion illustrates my motivation behind starting the thread--the description and rules are suitably nebulous on how Move actually interacts with the ranged attack rules (and cover, for that matter).

 

If someone is crouched behind a table, and you pick up an object behind them and hurl at them, do they have cover?

If someone is crouched behind a table, and you pick them up, do they have cover?

If you drop something on the person behind the table, do they have cover?

 

Just watching the films we can see that line of sight isn't a necessity for Move: how many instances do we see one character or another lifting an object while their eyes are closed?

 

Do range bands come into play? If I pick up an object adjacent to myself, and launch it at someone at long range, is that going to be any harder (other than requiring some upgrades and additional Force pips) than if I pick up an object at long range and launch it at someone the object is adjacent to?

 

Getting out of the frame of my initial query, the power mentions objects, but not people. Whether you can lift a creature or not isn't clear. I'd assume you should be able to, because characters do it a little in the EU, and it was possible in Saga Edition, but I can't think of an instance in the films where someone picks up another creature with the Force. And certainly no one in the films is ever seen to be flying or levitating themselves.



#18 Dbuntu

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 07:07 PM

That was an example of distance and barriers not being an issue with Force powers in the universe. Maybe a better example is when Yoda closes his eyes and lifts the Xwing from the swamp. 

I don't know that I buy the difference between moving an object and attacking with an object. You are moving an object in each case. The point I was making is that there are some funny loopholes in the rules for Force attacks using Move. It's certainly not a point to argue over at the table, but it does make for some tricky questions.

 

Here's another: if the object I'm Moving is say, a vibroknife. Is the damage based on Ranged Light or Melee? 

 

PS: It might be a training exercise, but you're going to get schooled. I'm rocking the 181st stripes. That means I'm really good. 



#19 Dbuntu

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 07:12 PM

Getting out of the frame of my initial query, the power mentions objects, but not people. Whether you can lift a creature or not isn't clear. I'd assume you should be able to, because characters do it a little in the EU, and it was possible in Saga Edition, but I can't think of an instance in the films where someone picks up another creature with the Force. And certainly no one in the films is ever seen to be flying or levitating themselves.

It actually is in the book even if not spelled out explicitly. A humanoid is Silhouette 1, With the Move upgrades you can lift objects of Silhouette 1 :. You can Move a humanoid.



#20 EldritchFire

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 10:08 PM

This discussion illustrates my motivation behind starting the thread--the description and rules are suitably nebulous on how Move actually interacts with the ranged attack rules (and cover, for that matter).
 
If someone is crouched behind a table, and you pick up an object behind them and hurl at them, do they have cover?
If someone is crouched behind a table, and you pick them up, do they have cover?
If you drop something on the person behind the table, do they have cover?


I would say yes. They took a maneuver to gain the benefits of cover. Remember that we're dealing with nebulous and fuzzy ranges and there is no one "direct line" from attacker to target. Unless something is done to remove that cover bonus (either by moving the cover away from them, them away from the cover, or spending threat/advantage to negate cover) they still have it.
 

Just watching the films we can see that line of sight isn't a necessity for Move: how many instances do we see one character or another lifting an object while their eyes are closed?


I misspoke earlier. I meant to say "line of effect" not "line of sight". Have you played Mass Effect? I'm thinking like that. You need to be able to "reach out and touch your target" in order to affect them.
 

Do range bands come into play? If I pick up an object adjacent to myself, and launch it at someone at long range, is that going to be any harder (other than requiring some upgrades and additional Force pips) than if I pick up an object at long range and launch it at someone the object is adjacent to?


It's going to require more concentration (enough LS pips and upgrades) but the difficulty of the check doesn't change. The difficulty is equal to the silhouette of the object moved.
 

Getting out of the frame of my initial query, the power mentions objects, but not people. Whether you can lift a creature or not isn't clear. I'd assume you should be able to, because characters do it a little in the EU, and it was possible in Saga Edition, but I can't think of an instance in the films where someone picks up another creature with the Force. And certainly no one in the films is ever seen to be flying or levitating themselves.

 
Dbuntu is right: people are silhouette 1 objects.
 

That was an example of distance and barriers not being an issue with Force powers in the universe. Maybe a better example is when Yoda closes his eyes and lifts the Xwing from the swamp. 
I don't know that I buy the difference between moving an object and attacking with an object. You are moving an object in each case. The point I was making is that there are some funny loopholes in the rules for Force attacks using Move. It's certainly not a point to argue over at the table, but it does make for some tricky questions.


As I said above, I misspoke. I meant "line of effect".
 

Here's another: if the object I'm Moving is say, a vibroknife. Is the damage based on Ranged Light or Melee?


Neither. It's a Discipline skill check, and the damage is based off of the silhouette of the object moved: 5 for silhouette 0, or 10x the silhouette if 1+. So a vibroknife would be 5 damage (+1 damage for each uncanceled success, as per the normal ranged attack rules).
 

PS: It might be a training exercise, but you're going to get schooled. I'm rocking the 181st stripes. That means I'm really good.


If I get schooled, at least I can say I got schooled by the best!

-EF


Edited by EldritchFire, 21 January 2014 - 10:09 PM.

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