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Comprehensive Analysis of Stereotypical Archetypes and their Power


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#1 Latoshi

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 08:17 PM

I would like to post this thread as I believe it would be an interesting and helpful topic for the community. I would like to say now that personaly, I love Anima as it is probably one of my favorite concepts in tabletops. This topic I am posting is purely for analytical purposes and that should be kept in mind. Opinions are nice but here they are not constructive. Anyways onto the purpose of this post.

 

The purpose of this post is for the observation, judgement, and comparison of the "power levels' of your stereotypical archetypes. These archetypes being the following; Fighter, Mystic, Psychic, Prowler, Domine, Mixed, and Novel (Because we can't just leave out the freelancer). Now I would like to state how I am defining these archetypes for the purpose of this discussion.

 

Fighter: A fighter is a character with a large to heavy focus in combat with weapons and armor. They would have okay to little mastery in any supernatural art and if they did it was most likely Ki to a degree. This archetype is defined by Skill more than power in battle using ki to facilitate thier martial prowess.

 

Mystic: This is actually rather self explanitory. A mystic would be any character obsessivly focused in magic and its use. Not much to say there.

 

Psychic: Same as the mystic except with psychic powers.

 

Prowler: These are characters with a moderate combat ability. If these characters where to fight their major bet is to use stealth and surprise to get the upper hand on their opponent before they could react. These characters use moderate to little ki to support their stealth, combat, and their ability to impose penalties on thier opponents.

 

Domine: These are almost like opposites to the Fighter. While they have focus in combat they use their combat abilities to support thier ki techniques or powers. These characters tend to have moderate to large ki pools, decent to amazing accumulations, and a large to vast amount of Martial Knowledge.

 

Mixed: What falls here is anything that is a combination of two archetypes as listed in the core rulebook. It is important to state what archetypes are being mixed for your information being presented.

 

Novel: This is for any character who is focused in nothing but can use multiple things with great ease. Characters who somehow use psychic powers, magical spells, ki abilities, and techniques in combat (It is possible to a degree, bit hard to work with) falls into this category. They are usually not good at any one thing but can do a lot. Jack of All Trades, Master of None.

 

Now that I have defined the archetypes as we will see for this discussion I would also like to state that you are more than welcome to point out flaws, shortcommings, benifits, limitations, pretty much anything that would contribute to thier worth in any way.

 

This has been a debate amongst me and a friend of mine, in which he presses that mages are severely hindered by limitations put on their ability to learn spells (refering to the gnosis limit, which the players have no control over, on High and Divine spells). While I counter that all branches of these things have thier own limits and drawbacks, even with said drawbacks mages still get very powerful. This is just a small fraction of that of course.

 

Anyways I will leave this for the community to discuss. I will try as hard as I can to post regularly on this post as to try and keep it going. I encourage you to try and shoot down or counter peoples judgements on these archetypes and at the same time I would also like to see you bolster them as well.

 

As a final reminder this is a discussion not an argument. Please keep the conversations calm and constructive please. Remember this is for the good of the community. If any clarrification is needed feel free to ask or send me a private message,

 

Facts > Opinions

 

Addition: While this heavily leans towards combat feel free to add non-combat input as well so long as said information is constructive to the discussion.


Edited by Latoshi, 16 January 2014 - 08:28 PM.

People are not failures simply because they try and fail.

Only when they fail and give up have they truely failed.


#2 Latoshi

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 08:48 PM

I will start with an example.

 

In comparison of the mystic and the Domine archetype there have been many debates about thier power. It has been pushed as previously mentioned that because of the gnosis limit on high and divine magic mages are unable to be truely powerful. When a counterpoint is offered that while that may be true to a degree, most spells that border high magic and some of the high magic spells can be related to third level ki techniques (Please note I am refering to the ones that have max MK invested and have been built powerfully such as the Ki technique given in the dominus exxet known as "Delevi Deus Anima, Exterminator of the Souls of the Gods") I say "some high magic" because as of the release of the arcana exxet high magic is accessible to characters without the need of gnosis which puts them at point. But anyways even referencing such a powerful technique such as Delevi Deus Anima, it is on par with high magic or around that area. This means it is incredibly difficult for techniques to reach divine power. Meaning that from observation a mage would be on par with a technician for power. But then there is the fact of technique disadvantages. While the mage can accumulate zeon and cast their spells a technician must accumulate ki and activate the ability. But when we are referencing high end ki techniques most have debilitating disadvantages, such as Overload (20 turns) in the case of the previously mentioned ki technique. On top of spending that massive amount of ki the technician must suffer a overload rendering himself unable to use ki for 20 turns. This makes it objectivly less powerful than the magical spells because (as far as I have read) None of the spells have a negative consequence for the caster after the spell is complete.


Edited by Latoshi, 16 January 2014 - 08:49 PM.

People are not failures simply because they try and fail.

Only when they fail and give up have they truely failed.


#3 ElricOfMelnibone

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 03:36 AM

There are a few ways a caster can achieve Divine Magic. An Erebus Avatar with Dream subpath can create an artifact that maintains constantly "Between Dreams and Reality" spell in order to be costantly at 45 Gnosis, for an example OR a character could build an Artifact with the same properties of Erebuskaikel, becoming constantly in contact with a Node, which allows casting of Divine Magic, although with a certain degree of risk.

 

In my campaigns there are a few other ways of achieving Divine Magic (no more than a couple, actually), but both refer to home rules, hence are not to be considered here.

 

Despite Ki Techniques being more powerful tools in combat, I believe Magic is the most versatile power among all supernatural powers (well, also summoning, if you consider Invocations and Incarnations as well). Besides, I don't think a huge tank fighter should be something to be understimated in combat. A very focused (non technique user) fighter can be just as dangerous granted he/she has one or two "tricks" to use in combat. An Item Technique granting up to +50Attack, combined with a Final Attack and a Use of Necessary Energy can add up to +170Attack. Add in a +60 from Samiel Magnus and you have a whoopping +230. Add to the mix Elan with Noah for an extra +60 (Dark Power and Dark Avatar) and even a Weapon Master at reasonably high levels can kick some serious butts. Besides, a fumble can ruin a technician making his super-move or a wizard casting his/her battle-winning spell, especially if the fumble is on a Defense roll. A Weapon Master fumbling his/her Defense roll will probably have more armor and a HUGE quantity of Life Points to withstand the consequences.

 

On general terms I find Anima a very well balanced game in term that all classes have very strong builds that allow reaching the highest pinnacles of power. Still there are builds that may prove "excessively poweful" on most common circumstances. For example a Technician focused on Predetermined Roll Techniques (such as those of Solomon), might unlock a 440 Predetermined Roll technique by Level7 or so...which is definitely OP for more than a few levels, BUT such a character will most times have no Attack/Defense of his/her own, meaning that once the Ki is run out (or if the character is in a situation where ki cannot be used), he/she is dead meat.

 

Prawler and Novel classes are definitely less powerful in combat, BUT they should make up for it with general usefulness out of it. Besides, I think Game Masters should really reward players for creative use of Secondary Abilities in combat. Just to give you an instance, a Thief might be less powerful in combat than a warrior, but if the Thief has 560 in Trap Lore, he/she should be able to create a trap that not only is almost undetectable (inflicting -90 to the target's Defense roll) and have a Predetermined roll of AT LEAST 440, but it should also be capable of inflicting heavy damage and even status effects (depending on what the thief has at his/her disposal, but really we are talking about someone whose ability to set traps is GODLIKE, and I wouldn't like to fall into a trap set by GODS!). The same goes with Poisons which should be used in an efficient way (I've home ruled poisons to make them much more interesting in my campaigns, without becoming OP). That's because...well you know Poisons ARE deadly! Actually they are much more deadly in reality than they seem to be in Anima System, that's why I made them much more proficient. A powerful trap imbued with a strong poison could kill of a very powerful warrior or mage, and that's really something from a non-combat-oriented character. Simply put, neither a Thief, nor an Assassin should EVER face in combat a fighter/domine/psychic/mystic. If a Thief or an Assassin needs to kill or knock out such a character, he/she should find a way (and should have the means) to do so WITHOUT EVEN ENTERING combat.

 

I believe there are tons of other useful ways of employing secondary abilities in combat (or almost combat) situations. It all depends on the creativity of the player and the reasonability of the master. As already said, I like to reward creative playing over power playing, whenever possible. Of course, it is the player and not the master that must have the "good ideas" about how to use his/her character in combat.



#4 Latoshi

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 03:02 PM

But even so, In camapigns that we have run, more specifically, ones I have been in or I have run, I have seen a mage or psychic level a combat field before the fighters or domines, even have a chance to get one kill. This brings into question some of the power levels mages are offered for example. They take no penalties from anything dealing with ranged combat aside from lack of vision. So, a mage, could easily cast a spell and target three different targets without incurring penalties for say switching targets, targets movement values, or other such penalties. And the enemies would still take the penalties of it being a fired projectile for the purposes of penalties. While they do not get the bonuses either, the penalties tend to stack up more than the bonuses. This leaves to question how do some characters follow up on a caster that can plow most everything down with a single innate spell, not leaving much for the rest of the party to do.

 

 

Although I do find it amusing that the combat focused party members get outdone in their field of expertise, It does not leave much fun for the session.


People are not failures simply because they try and fail.

Only when they fail and give up have they truely failed.


#5 ElricOfMelnibone

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 05:27 AM

As a matter of fact, Psychics and Mages might be more proficient at crowd control, while specialized fighters/domine should be more proficient at 1VS1 fights (domine may also be excellent crowd controllers depending on the technqiues possessed, though). Anyway, in prolonged fights Mages will run out of Zeon and Domine of Ki, while Psychics and Fighters can go on forever...but on my experience Psychics tend to have a not so high Power Level. They are more stable than mages, but less boombastic, quite like a fighter compared to a domine. I believe all kind of characters have a specific combat nemesis.



#6 Latoshi

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 07:33 AM

This is true but what about technicians who have taken the ki recovery advantage. At maximum that advantage is regaining an effective 1 ki every 3 turns (if unification of ki is used) This makes it more than possible for a technician to keep going. Not blasting a tech off every turn mind you. But enough that they can have a large amount of sustain.


People are not failures simply because they try and fail.

Only when they fail and give up have they truely failed.


#7 Nurddude

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 10:22 AM

Also, Limits can add a significant amount of Ki, and Agon: Limit of War goes nicely with the present debate. This will great to keep a Technician running.



#8 ElricOfMelnibone

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 04:31 AM

I don't use Ki unification, so I won't comment on that. As for limits: yeah, they come in handy...but still a character won't be able to keep on going for very long. Besides, technicians are limited by Accumulation. If they are not using predetermined techniques, all points they spend to make accumulation faster are points which are deducted from their Attack/Defense pool. Also, technician only gain 5HP and 5Initiative per Level and no Defense Bonus per Level. Since they have to spend on Ki and Ki Accumulation, they don't usually wear heavy armor. They withstand blows far worse than the average fighter...a single Defense Fumble can doom them. As always, predetermined are a strong build...until they finish their ki, of course.



#9 segara82

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 05:08 AM

Well, with boosted attributes a Technician can keep up with other fighters for a long time, as long as he has improved Ki-Regeneration and Superior Augmentation. Especially if you use the optional rules about bonuses for having higher Dex and/or Ag than your opponent. For comparison: My Black Paladin is built like a brickhouse, Str 13 and Con 10, but not too fast with Ag 6 and Dex 10. When i cross blades with the Technician of my group with Str 7 Con 8 Dex 14 and Ag 14 he already has a 50 points bonus for At/Def. As soon as he uses Superior Augmentation he goes up to AG and DEX 18 ... resulting in a new bonus of 130. Unless he fumbles or i explode dramaticaly i don't hit him. And he can theoretically keep his attributes boosted that way all the time. Of course without the optional rule it is a rather fair fight.

Courage is the mastery of fear - not the absence of fear


#10 Latoshi

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 10:00 AM

But you have to consider the ki cost in that. Your paying 36 ki (18 from dex and agi pools respectivly, unless using unification of ki rules) to boost your stats that high and a cost of 2 every 10 turns (1 from each). While the maitenance is not high, the initial cost is a big one. Because of this the technician may not have the ki to pull off his good techs (However, his likelyhood of doing the techniques increases if unification of ki is used) And while that is all done and good A dark paladin gets some decent MK per level (20 per lvl). So it is completely possible by that level which I am assuming is 12+ that the very same dark paladin is able to boost his stats to keep up.


People are not failures simply because they try and fail.

Only when they fail and give up have they truely failed.





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