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#61 Cail

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 11:05 AM

Thats a little different though, you have a specific codex suppliment written to allow you to make that army. You would not be able to field it using the Tau Empire codex alone with farsight as a commander.


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#62 Adeptus-B

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 11:30 AM

 

What I suspect GW has discovered, is that there's a pain threshold when it comes to gaming expenses. You can't just keep on increasing prices indefinitely, and renewing the model lines (with lots of scaling creep), especially not when disposable income isn't increasing. At some point, playing the game becomes something only the idle rich can afford. And I guess that point has just about been reached.

 

It's not at all surprising to me they're in trouble. They're just too expensive for most people. I mean, if I had any children I wouldn't be able to stray current with GWs stuff. And I'm pretty sure I'd tell my child "F no, you can't play 40K!" if I had one.

 

 

 

And let's not even discuss the price hikes. I think we can all agree on the effect that this decision will have.  :rolleyes:

 

Eeeeyup. A friend of mine visited England back in the '90s, and attended an event at a GW store where Jervis Johnson was speaking. Someone asked him why GW raises their prices so aggressively (even then!); Johnson replied that, as a designer, he has no input on prices, but since GW's sales have increased after every price increase, they have no incentive not to hike prices. Well, they have officially passed that 'tipping point'. With a minimum entry fee of several hundred dollars, how are non-1%ers supposed to become players?

 

And GW no longer supports any potential 'gateway' games. The dismal relaunch of White Dwarf prompted me to dig out some of my old issues to remind myself why I used to like this magazine. It's kind of startling to see how many games GW used to support over and above the 'big two'. Warhammer Quest, Space Hulk, Necromunda, Mordheim, etc. I never had any interest in WH's Old World, until I got hooked on Mordheim. I'm sure more than a few new players got lured into the tabletop games because of these smaller-scale supplementary games. Unfortunately the disasterous failure of the ill-conceived, expensive-to-produce Dreadfleet my have driven a stake through any chance of new 'peripheral' games, even though they are something GW urgently needs...


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#63 AtoMaki

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 11:46 AM

I meant mechanically speaking, not from a business standpoint. They've tried to move away from the competative game that 40k was never meant to be. The codex release schedule has also been excellent with this edition, and they are (mostly) balanced (most of the powerful codices are from 5th ED now, and the majority of the complaints I here are about the new ones being universally under-powered, which should balance out eventually).

40k is one of the least tactical games they've released.

 

"Technically speaking" the current edition is a mess. Assault is super-crapsastic, shooting is super-awesome, vehicles are almost useless and the codices are horribly balanced. The only redemption of 6th edition are those small glimmers of hope that things could be different (like the very well-written Tau and SM codex and some of the rules in the BRB), but even those are far from perfect (some aspects of the Tau/SM codex are sharply out of balance, and overall the BRB has more silly/terrible rules than good ones). 

 

But for one, some of the new stuff is quite exhilarating if you are in the 40k RPGs too. Like, I would just love to see the Riptide in an RPG (Deathwatch or Only War) supplement!



#64 Cail

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 12:01 PM

 

 

What I suspect GW has discovered, is that there's a pain threshold when it comes to gaming expenses. You can't just keep on increasing prices indefinitely, and renewing the model lines (with lots of scaling creep), especially not when disposable income isn't increasing. At some point, playing the game becomes something only the idle rich can afford. And I guess that point has just about been reached.

 

It's not at all surprising to me they're in trouble. They're just too expensive for most people. I mean, if I had any children I wouldn't be able to stray current with GWs stuff. And I'm pretty sure I'd tell my child "F no, you can't play 40K!" if I had one.

 

 

 

And let's not even discuss the price hikes. I think we can all agree on the effect that this decision will have.  :rolleyes:

 

Eeeeyup. A friend of mine visited England back in the '90s, and attended an event at a GW store where Jervis Johnson was speaking. Someone asked him why GW raises their prices so aggressively (even then!); Johnson replied that, as a designer, he has no input on prices, but since GW's sales have increased after every price increase, they have no incentive not to hike prices. Well, they have officially passed that 'tipping point'. With a minimum entry fee of several hundred dollars, how are non-1%ers supposed to become players?

 

And GW no longer supports any potential 'gateway' games. The dismal relaunch of White Dwarf prompted me to dig out some of my old issues to remind myself why I used to like this magazine. It's kind of startling to see how many games GW used to support over and above the 'big two'. Warhammer Quest, Space Hulk, Necromunda, Mordheim, etc. I never had any interest in WH's Old World, until I got hooked on Mordheim. I'm sure more than a few new players got lured into the tabletop games because of these smaller-scale supplementary games. Unfortunately the disasterous failure of the ill-conceived, expensive-to-produce Dreadfleet my have driven a stake through any chance of new 'peripheral' games, even though they are something GW urgently needs...

 

The interesting thing is that a large portion of the people drifting away from them are moving to games similar to those they no longer support (Dreadball, Infinity, malefaux etc) basically small skirmish level games with a low buy in cost. Even Warmahordes works well at very low point games.


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#65 Simsum

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 12:35 PM

I'm sure the lack of GW alternatives to 40K/WFB doesn't help them retain customers. I think I can pretty safely say that the people I play GW games with would have drifted on to other things, and perhaps never drifted back, if we didn't also play things like EpicArmageddon, GorkaMorka, BloodBowl, BattleFleetGothic, Necromunda, SpaceHulk, Mordheim and... up until FFG's Descent took over, WarhammerQuest. SpaceCrusade and DreadFleet are basically the only GW games we don't play, and that's primarily because we only have one copy of each of those games between us (6 people can't really play with just one set of those).

 

Even Descent we probably wouldn't have checked out, if it we hadn't lost a few minis that GW didn't let us replace. Though let me hurry to add that both editions of it are amazing, and absolutely worth a look if you're into that sort of thing.

 

The thing is - at least for us - it's very easy to keep customers loyal when you have strong and consistent art direction, and a breadth of quality games that all use pretty much the same minis. There's an incentive to stay with that company's games, simply because the minis and terrain is interchangeable to a reasonable degree. But nobody very human, I think, will keep playing 40K battles every other week all their lives. There really needs to be that breadth of games to change things up - and the consistency and overlap of products to keep persuading people to return to the games they have, or at least not start looking at another company's games.


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#66 Cail

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 01:09 PM

Yeah, one of the big things with starting Infinity for me and my friends was the argument 'if we don't like the game, we can always just use the mini's for necromunda'


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#67 Lynata

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 01:50 PM

The dismal relaunch of White Dwarf prompted me to dig out some of my old issues to remind myself why I used to like this magazine. It's kind of startling to see how many games GW used to support over and above the 'big two'. Warhammer Quest, Space Hulk, Necromunda, Mordheim, etc. I never had any interest in WH's Old World, until I got hooked on Mordheim. I'm sure more than a few new players got lured into the tabletop games because of these smaller-scale supplementary games.

 

Ouphh, yeah. For me it almost feels like I missed a sort of "golden era" by about 10-20 years. I acquired a bunch of old White Dwarf issues just for the fluff inside, and the difference to the modern version is startling. Not just because of the other games. They actually used to give out hobby advice - like, real hobby advice, how you can improvise and make stuff yourself by recycling stuff you have at home. Today, at best you get tips on what you can do with stuff you buy from Citadel.

 

The thing is - at least for us - it's very easy to keep customers loyal when you have strong and consistent art direction, and a breadth of quality games that all use pretty much the same minis.

 

Though I have to say that I find the consistency starting to suffer. Of course much of this is my subjective impression of how so many different designers and writers all add their own ideas to the list of official material, watering down the original vision, but there also seems to be a perceived need to put out new units and miniatures for people to buy - and many of the newer minis just don't look or feel particularly "fitting"...

This also applies to various redesigns of older miniatures, by the way.

 

The interesting thing is that a large portion of the people drifting away from them are moving to games similar to those they no longer support (Dreadball, Infinity, malefaux etc) basically small skirmish level games with a low buy in cost. Even Warmahordes works well at very low point games.

 

Huh. I was looking at Battletech, myself.

 

It's a real shame. I still feel Necromunda was an amazing idea, even though I only have theoretical experience (thanks to the rulebook being freely available as a PDF on the official website). Same for Inquisitor, which seems to have influenced Dark Heresy on some level (various talents even have the exact same name).

 

For some time there was a rumour that GW might release a new Inquisition-based skirmish game, but I suppose that was just a load of hot air, like 90% of the rumours. To be honest, at this point I kind of expect GW to be "stuck" in their mindset, and unable to change/adapt. But I also believe that these things are outside the influence of the actual creators.

 

It may just be a case of a franchise/company growing "too big" and in turn becoming too removed from the hobby but ever closer to a corporate attitude, with creative processes being bogged down or even twisted by monetary concerns. Unfortunately, there are a lot of companies out there to which a development like this might apply.


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previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter -- debriefed), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors -- KIA), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose -- assassinated), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia -- retired), Taleera "Raven" Nephran (Hive Ganger & Inquisitorial Assassin -- mindwiped)

#68 Simsum

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 02:36 PM

Heh, yeah. Except for the actual game, pretty much everything about the 2e era was pretty great. GW made a serious and impressive effort to engage their players creatively and get them creating. For example, the first Thunderhawk I remember seeing was scratch built from a juice carton and various odds and ends, and came with a How-To for replicating it.

One of the ways GW continues to amaze me today, is that they obviously have more talent than ever that does stuff like this, but they're not blasting it all over the YouTubes.

The hobby is at least 90% Getting Your Creative Nerd On, but it seems like the company has become afraid that their customers actually go ahead and do that.

Also, Necromunda is brilliant. You should definitely find yourself a game or twenty. The campaign play is immensely satisfying, and the barrier of entry is about as low as it gets.
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#69 Cail

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 02:40 PM

You missed out. Necromunda was HUGE for a good 3 or 4 years. One of the most successful sub-games. It got a brief re-release about 9 years ago but it wasn't well supported at all (its likely this version of the rulebook you have, though there is very little difference between the editions)

I don't think the re-release had the rules from outlanders or the citadel journals though (rules for scavvy gangs, redeptionist cults, spyres, ash nomads, pit gangs etc). Try to download a copy of these if you don't have them, they really add a lot to the game.

Theres also an old white dwarf suppliment mission called 'hive of the living dead'. Truly great stuff and a perfect example of the kind of content we havn't seen in white dwarf for years.


Edited by Cail, 24 February 2014 - 02:42 PM.

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#70 Radwraith

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 03:57 PM

Well, If GW continues to flounder we can always hope they will be bought out by FFG! In all cases, The Warhammer 40k IP is probably still too valuable to just "go away". GW's anti-fan bias is pretty well known in the community and has been for many years. Logically, from a corporate standpoint, if the prices have exceeded the "pain threshold" mentioned earlier, than the company may well choose to lower prices to preserve market share remaining.



#71 Lynata

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 04:49 PM

Eh. Not too fond of what FFG did with some aspects of the setting...

 

As long as GW remains alive, at least there will be someone who still publishes fluff and rules following the original vision of 40k. Even though GW itself seems to suffer from a slight shift in narrative focus from gritty towards fantastic (yes, there can be such a thing as "too epic"), it is a far cry from what I see in most licensed material.

 

The setting has already been diluted by 20 years of a hundred writers all publishing their own ideas with little connection to one another. It won't get better if you take the most consistent factor out of the equation. For people like me it would actually get worse, because right now you can at least cherrypick your preferred interpretation.

 

[edit] In retrospect, this post almost reads like "it can only get worse"?  :unsure:


Edited by Lynata, 24 February 2014 - 04:50 PM.

current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter -- debriefed), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors -- KIA), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose -- assassinated), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia -- retired), Taleera "Raven" Nephran (Hive Ganger & Inquisitorial Assassin -- mindwiped)

#72 Simsum

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 05:07 PM

yeah, no offence to the FFG guys, but GW remains my first choice and FFG wouldn't be my second.

I agree entirely on the epic'itude spiral thing. It started getting a little out of hand around the time Dark Angels got robes, and it's become more and more pronounced ever since. But... I remain strongly coloured by 1e sensibilities. I miss stuff like madboyz, and marines just looking like they're checking a scanner and not in the last second of their thousand-year hand to hand combat against 40,000 daemons with daemons on top.
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#73 Tom Cruise

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 08:43 PM

FFG wouldn't be able to put forward enough money in the bidding war if GW did go under, really. I'd expect Hasbro to move in for the kill, then they'd have near-total domination of the nerdy traditional games industry. DnD, MtG and Warhammer would be a pretty potent set of properties to hold at once.



#74 Cail

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 11:35 PM

Personally with the advent of 3d printers I kind of hope the company does fold. I think the fan base is enough that, so long as there was one complete edition of the rules (with all codices up to date etc) and... someone producing miniatures whether its an independent company or people printing them themselves the game has a big enough fan base to continue on its own momentum. I would personally LOVE to have a stable edition of the game. I have much less time to play than I used to (and no opponents or stores to buy anything from in China) and re-learning the rules/having to re-buy an army to make it effective with the latest codex is infuriating. The last Tau dex was a huge example of this, I left with my first reading going "wow, they've really penned it so you HAVE to buy either a hammerhead or the new riptide in order to deal with heavy armour then..."


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#75 Tom Cruise

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 01:09 AM

3d printers at the quality needed to compete with citadel miniatures aren't really viable for personal use. And it'd cost more to print an army than to cast one. People overstate the impact 3D printers have at this point.



#76 Cail

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 01:30 AM

ORLY? http://umforum.ultim...warhound-titan/

http://i918.photobuc...zps82850262.jpg

Anyway, my point was SOMEONE will make the miniatures. Besides if GW folds then no one needs to 'compete' with Citadel anymore, thats my point.


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#77 Azraiel

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Posted 30 March 2014 - 10:21 AM

 

 

Well, FFG might have to re-imagine the Eldar to make them playable especially if they were originally not intended to be so.

 

They don't have to. In the 40k universe, the stamp on humanity is "Sucks to be you!". FFG can just play this card and make it clear that being a human is not a good thing when your companions are people like the ancient Eldar. When done right, this could be actually even more interesting than a "balanced" race selection.

 

 

Chances are that the Eldar have some major flaw somewhere. It could be their underestimation of humanity by way of their ego or something.

 

 

From what I've read and seen following the 40K mythos over the years, the only aspect of Humanity that isn't underestimated by literally every race out there is their aggression. Seriously, to any alien civilisation outside Imperial borders looking in (not there are many of those left in the 40,000 BC Milky Way), humans look like an unstoppable tide of mass murdering psychotics.


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#78 Radwraith

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Posted 30 March 2014 - 10:51 PM

And......? ;)



#79 Darth Smeg

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 05:05 AM

 

 

humans look like an unstoppable tide of mass murdering psychotics.

 

And this is reflected in how all my players play their characters :)


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#80 cps

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 07:57 AM

I have to say, I really enjoy all of the complaining about GW in this thread. It's been a long time since I played tabletop (~10 years) and pretty much everything people have said struck a chord. From the price hikes, White Dwarf going down the shitter, and insane rules changes (latest codex best codex), I'm really glad I got out when I did.  I remember when LotR was released and suddenly I had no interest at all in a third of WD's content.

 

If you can find it, the old Mordheim articles have excellent terrain advice. The how-tos in those are beautiful. Speaking of Mordheim, did you know they're making a video game? I'm excited to see how it goes, but if GW's past video game studio selection is any indication it will be shitty shovelware. Relic was a fluke.

 

But back on topic, I'm not optimistic about the future of FFG's 40k RPG line. Me and my group have moved on, and unless they offer something dramatically different in terms of mechanics, we're not coming back. DH1 is showing its age, and we tried OW and didn't like it much, and their new game that hasn't even launched yet is essentially the same game. Which is sad, because I really enjoy the DH setting. I just wish they'd done something new and interesting with it.

 

I didn't see anyone mention Rogue Trader. If FFG sticks to pattern, that's the next game in line for an upgrade. They basically can't use the EotE mechanics for that though, because that's what Edge of the Empire already is. And who would buy a new game that's just a game they already own with a new coat of paint?

 

(side note: Edge of the Empire is excellent and I take back everything bad I said about the funny dice)


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