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#41 Tom Cruise

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 09:22 AM

I have to wonder how much stock FFG put in this brand anymore. Black Crusade's support dried up incredibly fast, Only War hasn't had much to speak of either, and this beta was handled pretty lazily. I wouldn't be surprised if the 40kRPG line dies out for a while if DH2e doesn't sell pretty well.



#42 AtoMaki

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 09:28 AM

The tabletop 40k is also waning in popularity (and in quality too IMHO) so for one I could understand FFG's lack of interest in continuing the 40kRPG line.



#43 Tom Cruise

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 09:48 AM

I wouldn't be surprised if the 'a-team' has been shifted onto Edge of the Empire development. Star Wars is more of a lucrative IP than 40k, to be sure. And the differing levels of attention and care paid to DH2e vs EotE is pretty damning. 



#44 Brother Orpheo

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 02:35 PM

I wouldn't be surprised if the 'a-team' has been shifted onto Edge of the Empire development. Star Wars is more of a lucrative IP than 40k, to be sure. And the differing levels of attention and care paid to DH2e vs EotE is pretty damning. 

You wouldn't at all be surprised. Because it's true. Take a look at Edge of the Empire's credits.

 

In the interest of being fair...

FFG have the fortune of EotE being a refined version of the mechanics used in WHFRP3, whereas the DH2e beta v1 included attempts to integrate mechanics from EotE and completely divergent RoF/RoA and Injury mechanics, and other things that had no prior test bed. FFG also have some very big names from current and previous SW RPG contributors and LFL consultants chipping in to help. No one at GW seems to be willing to put their name on anything in the newest 40K RPG aside from IP management credits...


Edited by Brother Orpheo, 20 February 2014 - 02:49 PM.

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#45 Tom Cruise

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 09:03 PM

Meanwhile the original DH corebooks has people like Dan Abnett, John Blanche and Rick Priestly in the credits. Kind of a shame how things have changed/



#46 Radwraith

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 03:39 AM

As always; FFG must be willing to PAY these big authors for their time and use of their names. That's undoubtedly part of the problem.



#47 Ghaundan

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 05:08 AM

Okay, I won't say that those three aren't good, far from it . But BIG? Compared to who? What they write is hardly mainstream.

IT does seem odd that GW doesn't want to help their franchise grow on the RPG market, but when you play the tabletop games you get used to them doing nonsensical stuff.



#48 khimaera

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 10:26 AM

Dan Abnett wrote some fairly highly regarded comics for Marvel. I guess they're making a movie or something.



#49 Adeptus-B

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 03:03 PM

IT does seem odd that GW doesn't want to help their franchise grow on the RPG market, but when you play the tabletop games you get used to them doing nonsensical stuff.

 

True that. I was hopeful that the 'surprise' announcement a couple months ago that GW was experiencing a big drop in sales would shock them out of their current direction, and inspire them to look at what worked in the past as a template for how to pull out of their downward spiral. But no- they are just 'doubling down' on bad ideas while proudly refusing to listen to any consumer feedback. "White Dwarf sales are in the toilet? That can't possibly be because of our content, so it must be because of the size of the magazine. Brilliant! Just change the size, keep the content as is (nothing but ads for upcoming minis and one battle report), and sales are sure to take off!" No, say the fans, we stopped buying WD because it no longer contains any useful information. The old issues that we loved collecting had all kinds of articles covering different aspects of the WH/40K settings- that's what we want! "I-can't-hear-you-I-am-always-right-I'm-a-designer-you-are-a-peasant-la-la-la-la..." GW's current 'head-up-their-butt-ness' is starting to remind me of the dying days of TSR- another industry giant which, convinced that its dominance in the market would be perpetual, refused to adapt to an environment with growing competition and eventually went bankrupt...


Edited by Adeptus-B, 21 February 2014 - 03:05 PM.

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#50 Lynata

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 05:34 PM

IT does seem odd that GW doesn't want to help their franchise grow on the RPG market, but when you play the tabletop games you get used to them doing nonsensical stuff.

 

Well, let's keep in mind that this is a question that is several years old - ever since Games Workshop closed down Black Industries and hung out Dark Heresy to dry. If FFG hadn't negotiated licensed continuation, the whole line would have ended right there. That probably speaks volumes.

 

I fear I have to agree regarding GW's grasp on the business side. I don't know how much of this is influenced by investor pressure, but there have been so many missed chances over the past years ... :/


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#51 GauntZero

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 04:37 AM

WH40K - Mid Hive Crisis RPG

 

As an citizen living in the Under- and/or Mid-Hive of an gigantic Hive City you and your friends struggle and try to survive the grim and gritty everyday life in the Imperium.

Beware the Inquisition!

 

Some careers: Scum Fixer, Clean Servitor, Mail-Servitor, Servitor Mechanic, Gambler, Once I've seen an Astartes Pretender (can climb the cereers to Now-I-have-really-seen-One-Career), Hot-Dog-and-Rat Seller, Hive Mutant and Much More)

 

The "Astartes Pretender" class made me laugh. Love it.

 

Instantly had to think about a guy dressed in a huge and bulky self-made power armour made of whatever he could find, shouting "For the chapter" and fighting for the emperor in the gutters of the underhive. A little bit like Kick-Ass ;D


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#52 Simsum

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 01:12 AM

The tabletop 40k is also waning in popularity (and in quality too IMHO) so for one I could understand FFG's lack of interest in continuing the 40kRPG line.

 

I don't really agree with the quality thing. Failcast is failcast, and the web supplements are kind of crap. But other than that, the current edition cycle of stuff is pretty great.

 

What I suspect GW has discovered, is that there's a pain threshold when it comes to gaming expenses. You can't just keep on increasing prices indefinitely, and renewing the model lines (with lots of scaling creep), especially not when disposable income isn't increasing. At some point, playing the game becomes something only the idle rich can afford. And I guess that point has just about been reached.

 

The rules, a pair of codexes, rulers, etc. = $250

Dark Vengeance starter armies = $100

Game board = $290

Minimalist scenery = $250

Paints & stuff = $100

 

Even if you DYI most stuff, you're still looking at about a $500 barrier of entry just to get to the point of having not a whole lot worth playing with. That's pretty steep.

 

I recently expanded on my Tyranid army. That's an army I already had and have been collecting since waaay back in the day when it started life as a 'Stealer cult. Price? Oh just about $350. What I got was basically just a little bit more strategic flexibility.

 

It's not at all surprising to me they're in trouble. They're just too expensive for most people. I mean, if I had any children I wouldn't be able to stray current with GWs stuff. And I'm pretty sure I'd tell my child "F no, you can't play 40K!" if I had one.



#53 Cail

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 03:12 AM

 

IT does seem odd that GW doesn't want to help their franchise grow on the RPG market, but when you play the tabletop games you get used to them doing nonsensical stuff.

 

Well, let's keep in mind that this is a question that is several years old - ever since Games Workshop closed down Black Industries and hung out Dark Heresy to dry. If FFG hadn't negotiated licensed continuation, the whole line would have ended right there. That probably speaks volumes.

 

I fear I have to agree regarding GW's grasp on the business side. I don't know how much of this is influenced by investor pressure, but there have been so many missed chances over the past years ... :/

 

 

This is exactly what I was going to say. If they were interested in the RPG market they wouldn't have closed BI in 2007, and FFG wouldn't be the ones with the license now. GW has a long history of not admitting it has made poor business decisions, and instead continuing to find ways to force its changes on its fanbase, or shut down anyone that makes improvements they didn't think of.

I actually think the latest iteration of 40k bucks this trend, but they nurtured the wrong mentality in the fanbase for so long that going back to their roots is alienating for most of the current players.


Edited by Cail, 24 February 2014 - 03:14 AM.

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#54 AtoMaki

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 05:38 AM

I actually think the latest iteration of 40k bucks this trend, but they nurtured the wrong mentality in the fanbase for so long that going back to their roots is alienating for most of the current players.

 

Hell no. They actually turned their abysmal business politics up to 11 and now busy wreaking havoc amongst the fanbase. Just one example: our 40k TT gaming club had 25 members roughly a year ago; now it has 6. And oddly enough, the players who left TT jumped into the RPG and now it isn't rare to find 4-5 40k RPG groups playing in the club in the same time  :)


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#55 Lynata

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 07:28 AM

The mentality thing certainly doesn't help, yes.
 
On the rules front, there has been a ton of discussion regarding "what's legal", chiefly in regards to Forge World books whose rules were written by a different studio and whose models are even more pricy than GW's. What a lot of people don't seem to grasp is that GW doesn't care about "legal" and the core rulebook of the current edition specifically points out it's up to the players, presenting the Codices as the default, but at the same time keeping the door open for anything they want to add, from Forge World to GW supplements to homebrewed stuff. The only thing that matters is that all participants agree on whatever rules they end up using.
 
This "hands off" approach ties in directly with how the company handles the setting itself, and how it communicates this attitude. What most people think of when they hear "canon" for 40k does not exist - similar to the mechanics itself, GW seems satisfied with presenting their version of the setting and then letting others, including writers of officially licensed commercial products, add, remove or re-interpret various details with only a minimum of restrictions. Again the real problem lies with the players, many of whom seem unaware of this policy and are stuck in the false belief that 40k is a uniformly consistent setting - an issue proliferated by the Lexicanum wiki and the reputation it has within the community.
 
Even Black Library authors themselves have (kind of) criticised the lack of clear communication from GW regarding this topic:
 
"The IP works fine. The flaw is in the way canon is communicated, because it so rarely gets a mention. The flaw is in how people try to apply other licenses' attitudes to canon, then blame 40K for not making sense. Well, no, of course not. That's like assuming a tree is a banana tree, then saying it's wrong for having apples in its branches. The tree's fine. The expectation is what was wrong. The guy who sold the tree who never made it clear what kind of tree it was surely takes some of the blame, too."
- Aaron Dembski-Bowden
 
And, honestly? It's frustrating. Because 40k is not just something limited to some guys' basement or living room table anymore, or even some local club. The internet has brought the fandom together in chatrooms and forums, and the amount of licensed fiction has expanded to a level where people are accustomed more to the writings in some Black Library novel than the Codex fluff. This leads to a lack of common ground between people, and it's tiring to at least "negotiate the consensus" that everyone is right - what GW had intended - when people are stuck in the mindset that X needs to be the way because it says so in their favourite book.
 
I know because I've been stuck on the other side of the fence myself, and had a sort of "crisis of faith" at various licensed products dismantling the vision of 40k I was accustomed to. Until I actually set out to hunt for quotes and statements from the people actually writing the stuff, rather than the "established wisdom" of the community.
 
It has been said that Games Workshop sees itself primarily as a miniature producing company, treating the creation and sale of rulesets and the management of the IP as small subsidiaries of their business. The points above would certainly strengthen this perception. Technically, there's absolutely nothing wrong with this, but GW has failed to clearly communicate its intentions to its players, leading to the aforementioned issues that now make for countless unnecessary and unproductive debates amongst the fans rather than treating the game like its creators do.
 
Also, I know this will see me tarred and feathered, but I swear the intense focus on Space Marine hurts the potential of the game as well. Both in terms of narration as well as the boring "Blue on Blue" match-ups that seem to make up the majority of TT battles.
 
And let's not even discuss the price hikes. I think we can all agree on the effect that this decision will have.  :rolleyes:
 
/rant

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#56 Tom Cruise

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 09:19 AM

With the direction GW are going financially, I doubt there'll be much 40k to worry about in a couple years. Well, actually, more likely we'll have brand new Hasbro owned 40k to deal with. I mean, they already have the most well-known and successful RPG and TCG franchises, why not branch into wargaming?



#57 Cail

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 09:52 AM

 

I actually think the latest iteration of 40k bucks this trend, but they nurtured the wrong mentality in the fanbase for so long that going back to their roots is alienating for most of the current players.

 

Hell no. They actually turned their abysmal business politics up to 11 and now busy wreaking havoc amongst the fanbase. Just one example: our 40k TT gaming club had 25 members roughly a year ago; now it has 6. And oddly enough, the players who left TT jumped into the RPG and now it isn't rare to find 4-5 40k RPG groups playing in the club in the same time  :)

 

I meant mechanically speaking, not from a business standpoint. They've tried to move away from the competative game that 40k was never meant to be. The codex release schedule has also been excellent with this edition, and they are (mostly) balanced (most of the powerful codices are from 5th ED now, and the majority of the complaints I here are about the new ones being universally under-powered, which should balance out eventually).

40k is one of the least tactical games they've released.

I fully agree the company seems on the point of collapse.

Also, Lynata. I like (nay, love) that you quoted my favourite RPG author making a personal reply to you, kudos. Completely agree about the focus on space marines too. The thing I think is sad is that I remember the game being much more varied in its focus as a child/young adult when I started playing (1993 *gasp*). They used to really care about the fluff and rules matching up a lot more too, or at least it seemed that way.


Edited by Cail, 24 February 2014 - 10:09 AM.

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#58 Tom Cruise

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 09:59 AM

Do we play the same 40k? Tau and Eldar (both 6e codexes) are far and away the best codexes in the game, to the point that they dominate the game these days. Meanwhile the new Tyranid codex somehow manages to be worse than the 5th ed one (how they achieved this I will never understand).


Edited by Tom Cruise, 24 February 2014 - 10:01 AM.


#59 Cail

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 10:49 AM

Do we play the same 40k? Tau and Eldar (both 6e codexes) are far and away the best codexes in the game, to the point that they dominate the game these days. Meanwhile the new Tyranid codex somehow manages to be worse than the 5th ed one (how they achieved this I will never understand).

 

I dunno, I play Tau and I found I had to completely re-write/re-model/re-buy my list from the last two editions. The loss of the STR10 on the broadsides was a huge blow to me. Its certainly powerful but I think a lot of that comes from peoples new found over reliance on flyers and the Tau having great AA support. If your group allows FW then the 7 riptide list is obscene, granted.

I would argue 5E imperial guard is the strongest. It has a good choice of redundant scoring units (in the sense you can lose loads and still have the ability to take objectives) combined with massive amounts of cheap artillery (I play against a guy, prior to moving to Shanghai, who always fields 3 basilisks, and they are not to be under estimated) and one of the best flyers with the vendetta.

One thing I will concede though is that the new codices do not favour 'flavourful' armies. It's very hard to make an effective mono-god list with every chaos God, for example, and this does make me think that they are punishing people for representing the IP on the table top (although there are always people who will care more about having an effective army that a themed one) so perhaps I should partially withdraw my comment.


Edited by Cail, 24 February 2014 - 10:53 AM.

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#60 Tom Cruise

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 10:57 AM

Eh, it's more a matter of certain codices just being badly written. It's difficult to run flavourful chaos armies because the CSM codex is pretty lacking in a lot of ways. Meanwhile my all-battlesuit Farsight Enclaves force is very tabletop viable. It's much the same as it's always been in that regard, really.






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