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Draw their Fire and Stealth Device


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#1 SleeplessKnight

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 04:13 AM

If a ship 'A' with Stealth Device takes a hit from enemy fire that rolls a crit but ship 'B' is in range to use Draw their Fire to suffer the damage from the crit does ship 'A' still lose the Stealth Device card due to it being the ship that took the hit?



#2 Sergovan

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 04:46 AM

Being hit, under the rules, means having any hits or crits not being cancelled by defence dice when defending. If you are to receive a crit from not evading it then you lose your stealth. DTF just deals with the damage, which is a result of being hit, and a stealth device is lost once you are hit.


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#3 Lappenlocker

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 10:12 AM

Reading the cards directly, I would have to agree with Sergovan. After all, we have to go by the card text, rather than what feels right.

What feels right is that Draw Their Fire (DTF) means that one of the laser bolts (pew! pew! pew!) actually hit the other ship and not the intended target. What feels right is that the Stealth Device (SD) also did its job by making the single hit "miss" the target and cause the other ship to get hit.

However, that's not what the card text reads. In your example, the SD failed to deal with a hit and must be lost per the text, "If you are hit by an attack, discard this card." The DTF card's text makes it even more clear, "When a friendly ship at Range 1 is hit by an attack...". Note that the DTF card "admits" that the original ship was "hit".

Edited by Lappenlocker, 13 January 2014 - 10:14 AM.

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Bob Bell, Wylie TX
Rebels: (5) X-Wings, (4) Y-Wings, (2) A-Wings, (2) B-Wings, (2) YT-1300s, (2) HWK-290s
Imperials: (9) TIE Fighters, (2) TIE Advanced, (2) TIE Interceptors, (2) TIE Bombers, (2) Lambda Shuttles, (2) Firespray-31s, (2) Imperial Aces

#4 CrookedWookie

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 10:19 AM

It's been clearly stated, and I think even reaffirmed in the FAQ, that DTF does not count as a hit for the purposes of stealth. Nor does crashing into an asteroid and taking damage that way - you roll for damage but are never "hit by an attack."  

 

Q: If a ship equipped with Stealth Device
suffers damage from any source, does it
discard Stealth Device?
 
A: No. Stealth Device is only discarded when the ship,
as the defender, is hit by an attack.

Edited by CrookedWookie, 13 January 2014 - 10:23 AM.


#5 Bilisknir

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 10:56 AM

If you want to think about it in a story based way. DTF equipped ship places his ship between target and the enemy. He takes the hit, but the original target was still spotted and targetting systems have locked on, so the stealth device has been seen through.


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#6 Jehan Menasis

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 11:09 AM

In this example, the original ship is the only truly one 'hit' by the attack.

 

The ship with draw their fire suffers one uncancelled [critical] from the original attack, but it's not 'hit' by the attack itself, thus, stealth device is not lost.

 

Think of it along this sequence:

 

1.- Attacker rolls red die and scores.

2.- Defender rolls green die, but not enough evade results to cancel all hit+critical results.

3.- Defender is considered 'hit'. Only him.

4.- Defender now must suffer damage. So we move onto the 'suffering damage process', leaving the 'attack-hit process' behind.

5.- A nearby ally with DTF steps in and suffers one [crit] result, but he is not 'hit' by the attack by the rules. So it doesn't suffer any further ill effects from the original attack.

 

 

However, if you insist on making the DTF ship also 'hit' by the attack, Why stop with Stealth Device? You should be consequent and thus, allowing Target locking from Fire Control System on the DTF ship, the use of Vader (crew) on the DTF ship, use the DTF ship as the blast point of origin with Assault Missiles and so on...



#7 Lappenlocker

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 11:15 AM

It's been clearly stated, and I think even reaffirmed in the FAQ, that DTF does not count as a hit for the purposes of stealth. Nor does crashing into an asteroid and taking damage that way - you roll for damage but are never "hit by an attack."  
 
Q: If a ship equipped with Stealth Device
suffers damage from any source, does it
discard Stealth Device?
 
A: No. Stealth Device is only discarded when the ship,
as the defender, is hit by an attack.


Hmmm... I have to disagree with you, if this is the FAQ question that you are using in support of your position. Note that the answer uses the phrase "... when the ship, as the defender, is hit by an attack." This is the same phrase as used by DTF. DTF only takes effect when the original ship is hit by an attack.
Bob Bell, Wylie TX
Rebels: (5) X-Wings, (4) Y-Wings, (2) A-Wings, (2) B-Wings, (2) YT-1300s, (2) HWK-290s
Imperials: (9) TIE Fighters, (2) TIE Advanced, (2) TIE Interceptors, (2) TIE Bombers, (2) Lambda Shuttles, (2) Firespray-31s, (2) Imperial Aces

#8 Lappenlocker

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 11:18 AM

In this example, the original ship is the only truly one 'hit' by the attack.
 
The ship with draw their fire suffers one uncancelled [critical] from the original attack, but it's not 'hit' by the attack itself, thus, stealth device is not lost.

The original ship is the one with the SD. The ship with DTF was not the one with SD per the OP. So by your first paragraph, the SD is lost on the original ship.
Bob Bell, Wylie TX
Rebels: (5) X-Wings, (4) Y-Wings, (2) A-Wings, (2) B-Wings, (2) YT-1300s, (2) HWK-290s
Imperials: (9) TIE Fighters, (2) TIE Advanced, (2) TIE Interceptors, (2) TIE Bombers, (2) Lambda Shuttles, (2) Firespray-31s, (2) Imperial Aces

#9 CrookedWookie

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 11:25 AM

Oh, I was reading his question backwards.  I assumed the ship with DTF was also the one that was stealthed.  He's asking, if a ship with stealth is hit by a single crit, and another ship has DTF and takes the crit for him, is the original (stealth) ship still considered hit by the attack, even if no damage got through.

 

I believe the answer is yes; even though the second ship suffered the damage, the original ship was still hit by it, since it had to be, after all dice modification had taken place, an uncancelled critical result.  I believe ship B takes the crit, ship A takes no damage but was technically 'hit' and does lose stealth.


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#10 Jehan Menasis

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 11:29 AM

Yep, I also misread and thought that the DTF ship was the one with stealth device.

 

In any case, the answer holds true. Only the original ship is hit by the attack, and even if it doesn't end suffering the critical hit from it, it is still considered 'hit' and the device lost.


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#11 VanorDM

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 11:41 AM

Yeah it's a bit like the other thread dealing with the Autoblaster...

 

People tend to think of Hit = Taking Damage, just like they think of {hit} and {crit} to both being hits.

 

But in this game that's not true.  A hit doesn't always mean taking damage.



#12 CrookedWookie

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 12:07 PM

I actually see this come up with some of the crit cards, too.  If you hit a rock, you roll a damage, and on a [crit] or [hit] result, you suffer damage as normal.  Look at the critical effect cards, and a bunch of them say "roll 1 die on a [hit] result..." usually either suffer a damage or flip the card face down.  But that's only on a hit result - NOT on a [crit] result.

 

Because if you look at Weapons Malfunction, it specifically says "Roll 1 attack die, on a [hit] or [critical hit] result, flip this card face down."  

 

The game handles the two as different but related die results, and it's important to note they're distinct from one another.  That tends to get confused since we think of "the attack results concluding with uncancelled damage results remaining" as the attack "hitting."  And since we call the black-explodey-symbol a hit, we tend to think that anything that "hits" (including crits) counts as 'a hit result,' which is untrue.  

For all the vagary in card wording, the game is surprisingly consistent when it comes to its use of icons and when they are used or not used.






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