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Question regarding Influence basic power


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#1 yeti1069

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 02:35 AM

Does the power have two options or only one? That is, can you use the power to instill the target with some emotion, or hit them for 1 Strain, or is that all just one thing?

 

If the latter, how does making someone feel tranquil inflict Strain? Is it putting them to sleep or something?

 

If it's the former, does that also only work while engaged with your target?



#2 HappyDaze

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 02:48 AM

Does the power have two options or only one? That is, can you use the power to instill the target with some emotion, or hit them for 1 Strain, or is that all just one thing?

 

If the latter, how does making someone feel tranquil inflict Strain? Is it putting them to sleep or something?

 

If it's the former, does that also only work while engaged with your target?

It's all one thing. You choose the emotion and the narrative effect should follow the emotion. The mechanical effect is 1 Strain regardless of the emotion. If this takes the target over their Strain Threshold, then they will be overcome with the emotion and 'out' for the scene. What 'out' means depends on the emotion. Tranquility probably just has them sit back withdrawn from whatever is going on with a peaceful look on their face.


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#3 yeti1069

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 02:54 AM

Ah, ok. So the power has basically little or no real effect until you're hitting their Strain threshold then?

 

Do people ever use this as an ongoing effect, committing one Force die to continue to cause Strain over time?

 

Oh, and thanks for the quick reply.


Edited by yeti1069, 12 January 2014 - 02:55 AM.


#4 HappyDaze

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 03:05 AM

By itself, you can't commit. You need to keep battering down their emotional defenses. Combined with talents like Scathing Tirade - particularly the upgraded versions - and you can bring down some opponents without resorting to violence at all.

 

Look also to the Control upgrade that forces an opposed Discipline vs. Discipline check. If you can 'get them in the mood' for whatever you're pushing, most GMs would likely give you a Boost die for appropriate follow-up checks.


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#5 yeti1069

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 03:37 AM

By itself, you can't commit. You need to keep battering down their emotional defenses. Combined with talents like Scathing Tirade - particularly the upgraded versions - and you can bring down some opponents without resorting to violence at all.

 

Look also to the Control upgrade that forces an opposed Discipline vs. Discipline check. If you can 'get them in the mood' for whatever you're pushing, most GMs would likely give you a Boost die for appropriate follow-up checks.

Ah! Scathing Tirade looks amazing! And a control upgrade on Influence to add Force dice to that as well is pretty impressive. I'll have to think about heading that way eventually.

As for the other control upgrade...you mean a Boost die added to the Scathing Tirade check? Or to the same use of the Influence power? Anyway, yeah, this control upgrade can go the distance even without the Strain shenanigans, I just wanted to figure out what Influence does before any upgrading, and that's not a whole lot unless I've got a lot of time and a fairly complacent subject.



#6 HappyDaze

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 04:23 AM

 

I just wanted to figure out what Influence does before any upgrading, and that's not a whole lot unless I've got a lot of time and a fairly complacent subject.

 

It's fairly unlikely that a non-force sensitive target would detect that the basic use of Influence is happening. It's slow but insidious.


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#7 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 07:57 AM

Mechanically, the basic Influence power has a single effect: You cause the target to suffer a point of Strain.  And as there's no text to say it's an Ongoing Effect (such as the two Control Upgrades on the left side of the Sense power tree have), then you'd have to roll to activate it each round.  Against a Nemesis, it's not so great, but against Rivals and especially Minions, it's a bit more useful, since any Strain they suffer is treated as Wounds, and Minions have a rather low Wound Threshold.

 

The special rule (which is explained in more detail in the sidebar at the bottom of the page) doesn't really take effect unless you're using the "affect thoughts" Control Upgrade, because that's the ability that's really letting you guide/shape thoughts.


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#8 JonahHex

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 08:42 AM

The cool thing is that you can spend additional Light Side results on additional strain to your target. This goes up to 2 strain per Light Side result with the Strength upgrade, which can be pretty nasty if you get your Force Rating up to 2 and roll four Light Side results for a total of 8 strain. That's enough to put pretty much any minion completely out of commission.



#9 Doc, the Weasel

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 11:19 AM

 

Does the power have two options or only one? That is, can you use the power to instill the target with some emotion, or hit them for 1 Strain, or is that all just one thing?

 

If the latter, how does making someone feel tranquil inflict Strain? Is it putting them to sleep or something?

 

If it's the former, does that also only work while engaged with your target?

It's all one thing. You choose the emotion and the narrative effect should follow the emotion. The mechanical effect is 1 Strain regardless of the emotion. If this takes the target over their Strain Threshold, then they will be overcome with the emotion and 'out' for the scene. What 'out' means depends on the emotion. Tranquility probably just has them sit back withdrawn from whatever is going on with a peaceful look on their face.

 

 

That's not quite right. As Donovan mentioned, the special rule text applies to the Influence Power in general, not what you can do with the basic power. Without upgrades, you can only create confusion – and strain damage. 

 

It's clearer in text, where the special rules are literally a sidebar, and the effects of the basic power are separated.


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#10 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 03:11 PM

The cool thing is that you can spend additional Light Side results on additional strain to your target. This goes up to 2 strain per Light Side result with the Strength upgrade, which can be pretty nasty if you get your Force Rating up to 2 and roll four Light Side results for a total of 8 strain. That's enough to put pretty much any minion completely out of commission.

Not quite.

 

The most you can inflict in terms of Strain damage is 2 points per usage, and that's with the Strength Upgrade.  Only certain Upgrades can be activated more than once, and those have game text that says exactly that, such as the Range and Magnitude Upgrades under most powers.  So even if you rolled four LS pips, you could only activate Influence's basic power once per turn.


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#11 froste

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 04:40 PM

It looks to me that the text of the rule is saying that you CAN "activate" it multiple times per use.

 

p281 - Core Rulebook:

 

Force Power: Influence

 

Basic Power

The most basic form of Influence does not allow the Force user to guide or shape the thoughts of others.  He can "merely" strain their mind, inflicting stress and exhaustion.  The basic power has one effect that can be triggered multiple times on the same or different targets.  (bolding and Italics mine)

  • The user spends one light side force pip to stress the mind of one living target he is engaged with, inflicting 1 strain.

 

As I read it, the issue is the lack of clarity in the Strength upgrade wording in the chart...it doesn't explicitly say two per pip...it only says "When stressing the mind of a target, the character inflicts 2 strain." 

 

I read that as two per pip, not one since the text box for the upgrade (p283) does say:

Strength Upgrade:  When stressing the mind of a target, the Force user inflicts 2 strain instead of 1.

 

Thoughts?

 

This means that a Force Sensitive individual with even a single Force die COULD be great at dealing with minions, overwhelming their minds bit by bit (i.e. killing them since they don't have strain, I guess) if he's lucky with his rolls.


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#12 yeti1069

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 10:19 PM

That kind of leaves things up in the air. I think the wording of the power ("can be triggered multiple times") seems to indicate that you can cause more than 1 Strain per "casting," but it isn't necessarily the case. Is there a recourse on these boards for getting developer feedback/input/clarification on stuff like this?

 

How many wounds are typical of minions?



#13 JonahHex

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 10:36 PM

 

The cool thing is that you can spend additional Light Side results on additional strain to your target. This goes up to 2 strain per Light Side result with the Strength upgrade, which can be pretty nasty if you get your Force Rating up to 2 and roll four Light Side results for a total of 8 strain. That's enough to put pretty much any minion completely out of commission.

Not quite.

 

The most you can inflict in terms of Strain damage is 2 points per usage, and that's with the Strength Upgrade.  Only certain Upgrades can be activated more than once, and those have game text that says exactly that, such as the Range and Magnitude Upgrades under most powers.  So even if you rolled four LS pips, you could only activate Influence's basic power once per turn.

 

I don't see why it wouldn't be capable of being activated multiple times. Nowhere does it say you CAN'T do that, or that you can only activate an effect multiple times if it's specifically called out. Common sense could swing either way on this one, I think.

How exactly do you contact the devs? I'm going to ask about this one. 


Edited by JonahHex, 12 January 2014 - 10:39 PM.


#14 froste

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 11:08 PM

Not to mention that using the power to cause strain (or, I guess, most uses of a Force power) takes an action - so it's sort of like using a weapon on an enemy, right?

 

Using the base power to cause only 1 Strain (2 with the upgrade) maximum per use seems light/underpowered compared to a Blaster pistol set on stun.

 

A character with 2 Force dice may be knocking Rivals unconscious in a few rounds with the un-upgraded power, possibly faster using the upgraded version.

 

I'm going to run it this way and see what sort of outcomes we have.



#15 JonahHex

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 11:26 PM

Not to mention that using the power to cause strain (or, I guess, most uses of a Force power) takes an action - so it's sort of like using a weapon on an enemy, right?

 

Using the base power to cause only 1 Strain (2 with the upgrade) maximum per use seems light/underpowered compared to a Blaster pistol set on stun.

 

A character with 2 Force dice may be knocking Rivals unconscious in a few rounds with the un-upgraded power, possibly faster using the upgraded version.

 

I'm going to run it this way and see what sort of outcomes we have.

With two Force dice the most strain you could do at once is 8, which you'd need to do twice in a row on a rival to put them down. Seems fair to me, especially considering what stun weapons already do and how easy it is to hit with one of those at short range compared to rolling four Light Side results (or three Light Side results and Dark Side result, if you're willing to pay a Destiny Point and some strain).



#16 Doc, the Weasel

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 02:01 AM

You can use it multiple times. The text right above the effect's description states:

 

"The basic power has one effect that can be triggered multiple times on the same or different targets."

 

It would have been better if that were in the effect's description – where everyone looks – but there it is.


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#17 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 05:08 AM

Well, what do you know.

 

I just read the bullet point, figuring the paragraph above was just descriptive fluff, particularly with the "multiple targets" bit, which would be covered under the Magnitude Upgrades.


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#18 froste

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 08:36 AM

Yeah, I was surprised...since we were playing it the other way previously - with that character using his action to do 1 Strain and then taking cover again.

 

He was hoping that it might prove more useful in the future.  :)

 

And, bam - it has.



#19 yeti1069

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 10:06 PM

So, with that reading of the basic power, you roll your Force dice, then may affect 1 target for 1 Strain (or 2 if you've upgraded) per Force point, right?

 

Then, does the Magnitude upgrade allow you to...what?...affect as many targets as you have Magnitude for as much Strain as you've got pips?

 

 

Roll 2 Force dice and get 4 Force Points.

Basic power: can hit 1 target for 4 Strain, or some combination of up to 4 targets for a total of 4 strain (total Strain damage 4).

Upgraded with 1 Magnitude: can hit 2 targets for a total of 4 points each (total Strain damage 8).

 

Is that right?


Edited by yeti1069, 13 January 2014 - 10:42 PM.


#20 froste

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 11:38 PM

I think that's basically right...but you have to spend Force pips to activate those magnitude and range upgrades.

 

MAGNITUDE

Spend 1 light side force pip to increase targets affected equal to magnitude upgrades purchased.

 

The text description on page 283 of the Core Rulebook DOES say the Force user may activate this multiple times, increasing the number of targets multiple times...

 

Hmm...that means:

 

If you have three Magnitude upgrades purchased...you:

  • spend one pip to affect four people
  • spend another pip for four more
  • etc.
  • etc.

Until you run out of pips to spend.

 

 

 

Basic version: (max successes)

  • Roll 2 Force dice and get 4 Force pips max.
  • Basic power: can hit 1 target for 4 Strain (spend all 4 pips on strain)
  • Upgraded with 1 Magnitude: can hit 2 targets (spend 1 Force pip for a Magnitude upgrade) each for 3 strain (spend the remaining 3 pips on strain)
  • Upgraded with 2 Magnitude: can hit 3 targets (spend 1 Force pip for 2 Magnitude upgrades) each for 3 strain (spend the remaining 3 pips on strain)
  • Upgraded with 3 Magnitude: can hit 4 targets (spend 1 Force pip for 3 Magnitude upgrades) each for 3 strain (spend the remaining 3 pips on strain)

 

Upgraded Strength version: (max successes)

  • Roll 2 Force dice and get 4 Force pips.
  • Upgraded Strength power: can hit 1 target for 8 Strain (spend all 4 pips on strain - 2 points per pip)
  • Upgraded with 1 Magnitude: can hit 2 targets (spend 1 Force pip for a Magnitude upgrade) each for 6 strain (spend the remaining 3 pips on strain - 2 points per pip)
  • Upgraded with 2 Magnitude: can hit 3 targets (spend 1 Force pip for 2 Magnitude upgrades) each for 6 strain (spend the remaining 3 pips on strain - 2 points per pip)
  • Upgraded with 3 Magnitude: can hit 4 targets (spend 1 Force pip for 3 Magnitude upgrades) each for 6 strain (spend the remaining 3 pips on strain - 2 points per pip)

 

Am I typing crazy here or does this make sense?  :unsure:






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