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#41 Cail

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 03:13 AM

No need to be dismissive.

Its not dramatic at all. I'm just telling you directly I find this attitutude disheartening.


Edited by Cail, 27 March 2014 - 03:13 AM.

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#42 Amroth

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 03:23 AM

Cail raises good points though, no need to put limits on imagination. There's plenty of things other people include in their games that I wouldn't interpret that way in mine and vice versa.

 

I don't care though and I won't tell them they are wrong as they are as correct as I am, as long as the people playing their games enjoy them and the people playing my games enjoy them it's irrelevant.

 

You would do better to say we won't be following that particular fluff for the official line as opposed to it's dead and doesn't exist anymore so just forget about it already because you are wrong.

 

Some of the most exciting games I have played have been where the GM has broken canon or else re-interpreted it in new ways.


Edited by Amroth, 27 March 2014 - 03:24 AM.

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#43 Drachdhar

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 05:28 AM

There is absolutely nothing that says you cant have Squats in your games... Since there is no "official" date set for the start of BC as far as i've gleaned unlike DW and RT for example(both set around 817M41), and the 'Nids probably didnt nom the space dwarves until say between 730-810M41. 

And then you have the effects of the Warp as well, unintentional time travel is just another risk of space travel in 40k. Or a badass daemon does some magicky thingy which sends your chars back in time, or you find some archeotech stuff which does the same.

 

Or you gank ol' Empy and he is instantly reborn into his old kickass space nazi self, and after thanking you for finally freeing him from that damn Golden Throne he then proceeds to lay the beatdown of the ages on your sorry behinds.



#44 Cail

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 05:58 AM

Even the games with "official" dates can be set in any time period with minimal tweaking. I'd consider those dates more guidelines than actual rules


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#45 Adeptus-B

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 09:01 AM

There is absolutely nothing that says you cant have Squats in your games...

 

Of course that's true- gamers can include anything they want in their individual games. My point was that FFG is contractually obligated to stay more-or-less true to the current iteration of the 40Kverse, so if you want to include anything that falls outside those parameters, you will have to house-rule it. Asking FFG to present official rules for formally discontinued elements is a waste of time.


Edited by Adeptus-B, 27 March 2014 - 10:43 AM.


#46 H.B.M.C.

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 03:31 PM

That's also the point I'm making. People can do whatever they want, but there are things in 40K that are immutable. Not everything is open to debate or interpretation. Some things just either do or do not exist, even if they once did.

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Edited by H.B.M.C., 27 March 2014 - 03:32 PM.

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#47 Cail

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 11:44 PM

Again, its more accurate to say "These things do not exist within the current edition of 40k". If I choose to play 2nd edition 40k (or first edition epic) on the table top, I have rules for squats and can use them. I can even convert those profiles to the 40RPG line with minimal effort.

The question falls down to who you think can define what is canonical. Personally, I feel that given the current design team has nothing to do with the original creator I am well within my rights to say "That idea sucks, I'm not including it". The funny thing is that some of the fluff writers have openly admitted to feeling exactly the same about other fluff writers works, so yes, everything is up for interpretation. GW have proved that with their constant inconsistency and retconning (I would almost call it a dedication to being inconsistent at this stage).

Currently everything we see being released as new for 40k would fall into 'expanded universe' by any other series definition, given its not being created by the original writer or design team.

Back to the original topic, I can't see why FFG couldn't include rules for the effects of Chaos powers on alien races. It's pretty universally acknowledged in every edition of the game that Chaos doesn't just affect humans.


Edited by Cail, 28 March 2014 - 03:06 AM.

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#48 Fgdsfg

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 07:17 AM

 

Each individual campaign is a story that belongs to the group of you. NO ONE has the right to tell you the way you interpret the universe is wrong.

 
Except that things have changed, and there are old things that aren't part of the fluff any more.
 
Take, for example, the Ultramarines. Originally they were a successor Chapter created to replace the original ones that had fallen to Chaos, and their Chief Librarian was a half-human/half-Eldar.

These things, like lots of other things, are not part of the fluff any more.

BYE

 

Except that's not true; it's part of the fluff forever, for better or worse. GW has made it clear several times that all sources are equally valid, and if we go by traditional canon rules, it is canon until superseded by newer sources.

Who's the current Chief Librarian of the Ultramarines?
 

That's also the point I'm making. People can do whatever they want, but there are things in 40K that are immutable. Not everything is open to debate or interpretation. Some things just either do or do not exist, even if they once did.

BYE

Exactly.

 

Wrong.


Edited by Fgdsfg, 28 March 2014 - 07:27 AM.

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#49 Cail

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 07:42 AM

Regarding the argument of canon validity, I feel like I should point out that in the FFG published adventure "The Chaos Commandment" a group of acolytes go through a stroll IN THE WARP with absolutely zero protective gear. So clearly not everything they publish fits with other sources, seeing as that should be instant death for anyone who tries it according to almost everything else published on the subject ever.

Honestly though, I would love more detail on aliens in BC. I want to hire Kroot mercs and have Hrud spies. I want a Dark Eldar beastmaster with a group of rare and exotic carnivores I can feed people who defy me to. The rules for alien allies are limited because loyalists should not be having any contact with aliens. BC is clearly the place to include them :)


Edited by Cail, 28 March 2014 - 07:43 AM.

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#50 Fgdsfg

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 07:47 AM

Regarding the argument of canon validity, I feel like I should point out that in the FFG published adventure "The Chaos Commandment" a group of acolytes go through a stroll IN THE WARP with absolutely zero protective gear. So clearly not everything they publish fits with other sources, seeing as that should be instant death for anyone who tries it according to almost everything else published on the subject ever.

Honestly though, I would love more detail on aliens in BC. I want to hire Kroot mercs and have Hrud spies. I want a Dark Eldar beastmaster with a group of rare and exotic carnivores I can feed people who defy me to. The rules for alien allies are limited because loyalists should not be having any contact with aliens. BC is clearly the place to include them :)

Yes, I'd love to see some non-Chaos heresy all over Black Crusade. I realize that it's chaos-based, but Chaos doesn't limit itself to humans. Why should we or the books?


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#51 Adeptus-B

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 10:51 AM

 Honestly though, I would love more detail on aliens in BC. I want to hire Kroot mercs and have Hrud spies. I want a Dark Eldar beastmaster with a group of rare and exotic carnivores I can feed people who defy me to. The rules for alien allies are limited because loyalists should not be having any contact with aliens. BC is clearly the place to include them :)

 

Absolutely. There were a bunch of Chaos-corrupted xeno species glimpsed in the Gaunt's Ghosts novel Traitor General; BC seems like the perfect way to explore that aspect of the 40Kverse.


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#52 Fgdsfg

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 03:04 PM

 

 Honestly though, I would love more detail on aliens in BC. I want to hire Kroot mercs and have Hrud spies. I want a Dark Eldar beastmaster with a group of rare and exotic carnivores I can feed people who defy me to. The rules for alien allies are limited because loyalists should not be having any contact with aliens. BC is clearly the place to include them :)

 

Absolutely. There were a bunch of Chaos-corrupted xeno species glimpsed in the Gaunt's Ghosts novel Traitor General; BC seems like the perfect way to explore that aspect of the 40Kverse.

 

 

I mentioned this somewhere else recently, but it's implied over and over again that Chaos can corrupt everything and anything. The Craftworld Eldar stave off chaos by rigorous discipline and dedication to singular goals. The Dark Eldar have consciously and meticulously weeded out their literal souls and the psyker genes from their population. Orks are single-minded to the point of hilarity, yet have been known to be corrupted.

It's a repeating theme amongst sentient species that they have to somehow deal with the issue of chaos corruption, lest they fall completely to chaos. If they don't deal with it, there has to be some other extenuating circumstance that allows them to resist the influences of the Ruinous Powers - the Tau are almost soulless, and Kroot are animalistic, having an incredibly strong taboo when it comes to eating anything seemingly affected by the warp.

So why do we never get to see Chaos Eldar? Eldar - Craftworld, Dark, Exodite, Corsair or otherwise - that have been corrupted by Chaos? Maybe a Craftworld that have fallen to Nurgle in their attempts to preserve equilibrium. Maybe a Dark Eldar cult that are worshipping Slaanesh, attempting to gain his favour, or maybe worshipping the act of being fed upon, becoming one with She who devours.

 

Why don't we get to see Chaos Orks anymore? Yes, they are somewhat resilient, but that's not the same as immunity. The same goes for the Tau. We've seen literal machinery being completely taken over by Chaos - even the soulless aren't entirely immune.

Or an entire planet overtaken by kroot practising ritual cannibalism & incest, an entire world filled with eating and being eaten perpetually, a writhing mess of corrupted kroot-kind dragged back down the evolutionary ladder, barely above beasts of burden.

 

I'm not even requesting rules to play these. Just exposition, information, a setting, an adventure. Something.


Edited by Fgdsfg, 28 March 2014 - 03:06 PM.

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#53 H.B.M.C.

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 09:59 PM

Except that's not true; it's part of the fluff forever, for better or worse. GW has made it clear several times that all sources are equally valid, and if we go by traditional canon rules, it is canon until superseded by newer sources.

Who's the current Chief Librarian of the Ultramarines?

 

 

It's exactly true. Between Rogue Trader (1st Ed) and 2nd Ed 40K there was what you could best describe as a rationalisation of the universe. Rogue Trader was a haphazard mishmash of various stories and plot hooks and not everything was fully formed. A lot of the institutions that exist in current 40K were only hinted at in 1st Ed and a lot of things either didn't exist or were quite different to what they are today.

 

When they did 2nd Ed, one of the releases was "Codex Imperialis", a book that Codified a lot of the ideas from 1st Ed whilst dumping or significantly changing a lot of the extraneous stuff (no more half-Eldar Librarians, for example). The Codices that came after that first book continued to add and expand the universe, creating new universal constants (bolters do X, Marines function like Y, the Guard are Z, and so on). Since then GW have changed things now and then, but generally speaking from the start of 2nd Ed onwards GW has spent a lot of time getting the "vision" of 40K right, leaving behind the weirdness of 1st Ed almost completely.

BYE


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#54 Cail

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 10:42 PM


 

When they did 2nd Ed, one of the releases was "Codex Imperialis",

 

Codex Imperialis was included in the core box game along with the rulebook and the wargear book. It was not a separate release.

It was an all-in-one army book that, when combined with the thinner "war for armageddon" pamphlet allowed players to start playing with their chosen faction immediately, the codex being optional. I miss when GW still did things like that. It also includes rules for squats.

However, as I mentioned before FFG included an adventure in which a group of Acolytes entered the warp unprotected. This defies one of the 'immutable' laws of 40k (to use your words). However since its published by an IP license holder it can be considered 'canon'.

So here's the paradox: Either we have to accept that FFG is able to include things not mentioned or current with GW canon, or we have to accept that these 'immutable' rules may in fact be malleable, or the third option is that we as consumers can discount works based on our personal opinion on its validity from previous sources (but this would mean there was no coherent universe, only personal interpretations in which everything is open to be interpreted) What's your take on this?


Edited by Cail, 28 March 2014 - 11:13 PM.

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#55 H.B.M.C.

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 04:59 AM

Codex Imperialis was included in the core box game along with the rulebook and the wargear book. It was not a separate release.

It was an all-in-one army book that, when combined with the thinner "war for armageddon" pamphlet allowed players to start playing with their chosen faction immediately, the codex being optional. I miss when GW still did things like that. It also includes rules for squats.

 

How does that in any way impact what I just said?

 

And there's no reason why someone couldn't enter the Warp without suffering its effects. The Warp doesn't work in a predictable manner - that's the entire point of Chaos. And who's to say they weren't touched by the Warp? Isn't that kinda up the GM? And if the adventure you're referring to is the last section of The Chaos Commandment, there are places where they can suffer Insanity/Corruption (not to mention that which they might suffer when facing Daemons) and if we wanted to get really technical the area they enter is specifically said to be a pocket dimension created by the BBG. If this is not the book you were referring to, please correct me.

 

As to your three choices:

Choice 1: Not really valid. GW has to approve everything, and I doubt they'd approve something that goes against their vision of 40K.
Choice 2: There are set parts of the 40K fluff that do not change. The Horus Heresy happened. The Emperor sits on the Golden Throne. Space Marines are all male. There are no half-Eldar Librarians working for the Ultramarines. All the crazy stuff from the pre-2nd Ed days is either reinterpreted into something more fitting with the way 40K now works (the story of Huron Blackheart, specific details of the Horus Heresy, and so on), or is simply gone (Imperial Fists capturing Space Slaan before boarding Hive Ships to talk with Zoats - no, I'm not making that example up, that's from a book, specifically a book that no longer counts).
Choice 3: It's a kind of golden mean fallacy. It's the "we can do whatever we want" answer, which because of that isn't really an answer. As I've said before, people can do whatever they want and no one has any right to stop them. What people can't do is insist that their own method of doing something is just as valid as the actual stuff that counts. So if you want to have female Space Marines (as a common example), then go right ahead, but they don't exist in 40K-proper.

BYE


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#56 Fgdsfg

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 07:11 AM

 

Except that's not true; it's part of the fluff forever, for better or worse. GW has made it clear several times that all sources are equally valid, and if we go by traditional canon rules, it is canon until superseded by newer sources.
Who's the current Chief Librarian of the Ultramarines?

 
It's exactly true. Between Rogue Trader (1st Ed) and 2nd Ed 40K there was what you could best describe as a rationalisation of the universe. Rogue Trader was a haphazard mishmash of various stories and plot hooks and not everything was fully formed. A lot of the institutions that exist in current 40K were only hinted at in 1st Ed and a lot of things either didn't exist or were quite different to what they are today.
 
When they did 2nd Ed, one of the releases was "Codex Imperialis", a book that Codified a lot of the ideas from 1st Ed whilst dumping or significantly changing a lot of the extraneous stuff (no more half-Eldar Librarians, for example). The Codices that came after that first book continued to add and expand the universe, creating new universal constants (bolters do X, Marines function like Y, the Guard are Z, and so on). Since then GW have changed things now and then, but generally speaking from the start of 2nd Ed onwards GW has spent a lot of time getting the "vision" of 40K right, leaving behind the weirdness of 1st Ed almost completely.

BYE

 

You're ignoring the point; newer releases does not invalidate older releases. This is, as you said, "Not [...] open to debate or interpretation."

Even if we take the popular approach of canon validity counting from the oldest sources until invalidated by a newer source - an approach that specifically does not apply to Warhammer - lots of older fluff is never specifically negated by newer fluff. Including, as far as I know, the Half-Eldar Chief Librarian of the Ultramarines, no matter how stupid you personally think that is. Unless, of course, you care to answer my previous question.

I really find it suprising that you managed to score this writing gig with this attitude, which goes entirely against GW's own position on the fluff, and I sincerely hope that you're fired.

I also find it hilarious that you think that "GW has spent a lot of time getting the "vision" of 40K right", when nothing could be further from the truth. If they did, the entire universe wouldn't be riddled with inconsistencies and you wouldn't see large-scale makeovers of pre-existing species. You're talking about the same company that both removed Squats because they specifically didn't want WH40k to just be "Warhammer Fantasy in Space" and then made Necrons Tomb Kings.. in space.


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#57 Cail

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 07:44 AM

 

Codex Imperialis was included in the core box game along with the rulebook and the wargear book. It was not a separate release.

It was an all-in-one army book that, when combined with the thinner "war for armageddon" pamphlet allowed players to start playing with their chosen faction immediately, the codex being optional. I miss when GW still did things like that. It also includes rules for squats.

 

How does that in any way impact what I just said?

 

 

I just think if you're going to be condescending you should be more accurate in your wording, otherwise it sounds like you are unfamiliar with the source material you hold such strong opinions over.
 

 


 

And there's no reason why someone couldn't enter the Warp without suffering its effects. The Warp doesn't work in a predictable manner - that's the entire point of Chaos. And who's to say they weren't touched by the Warp? Isn't that kinda up the GM? And if the adventure you're referring to is the last section of The Chaos Commandment, there are places where they can suffer Insanity/Corruption (not to mention that which they might suffer when facing Daemons) and if we wanted to get really technical the area they enter is specifically said to be a pocket dimension created by the BBG. If this is not the book you were referring to, please correct me.


 

No that is very much the book I am referring to, and the entire premise of that section countermands everything GW has published on the matter (I'm not the only one who thinks so either, go check the Amazon reviews). That's why the importance of Gellar fields is stressed so much. If it was approved by GW, its another change towards what is often considered an immutable law, which is entering the warp without protection is a VERY BAD THING ™. For comparison look at the section in Ark of Lost Souls where the Gellar field fails. All I see with the argument that its a bubble in the warp is handwaving, which tells me you think anything is possible given a decent explanation, which would mean we agree.

Or your saying that FG/GW can handwave something and its instantly canon. But if someone else does it its not, or should be considered impossible until there is an official word on the matter. What if I had written that adventure instead of it being published through this company? Do you think that scenario would be well accepted by the majority of fans?

 

Even if the handwaving is accepted. How far can a company create something away from the perceived vision as it exists in the consciousness of the fanbase before it doesn't count? Who really holds the decision? Again, not to sound like a broken record but Rick Priestly is no longer working for the company. The current designers are people like you and me, or even Matt Ward. Its all 'expanded universe' at this stage.

On a side note, your reply to option one is very reminiscent of the argument Christians use for the bible being the word of god.


Edited by Cail, 29 March 2014 - 08:02 AM.

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#58 Cail

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 08:02 AM

 I sincerely hope that you're fired.


 

Dude, I enjoy your posts a lot on this forum and I always enjoy what you bring to the table but seriously, that's not cool. I find it surprising as well, but perhaps the attitude he's showing is what's needed to work within tight constrains as a freelancer and in this case its actually beneficial from a professional standpoint. Lets not let this turn into something ugly, its sitting nicely on 'heated debate' right now ;)


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#59 Fgdsfg

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 10:39 AM

Dude, I enjoy your posts a lot on this forum and I always enjoy what you bring to the table but seriously, that's not cool. I find it surprising as well, but perhaps the attitude he's showing is what's needed to work within tight constrains as a freelancer and in this case its actually beneficial from a professional standpoint. Lets not let this turn into something ugly, its sitting nicely on 'heated debate' right now ;)

It wasn't intended as an insult, I was being sincere. I think it's what would be the best for the product(s). I'm surprised they didn't cover these things when he was first hired.

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#60 Amroth

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 01:39 PM

The Immutable laws thing seems to be a crazy argument considering  how much GW change their minds and re-interpret their old stuff.

 

There may come a time when they decide all the work you've put all your effort and hard work into is simply no longer true. It would be unfair to argue for all those who enjoy your particular vision that it's dead and gone so don't use it or even think about it.


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