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#21 Felenis

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 03:37 PM

Just as a side note, the original rarity of the Vanaheim is almost assuredly a typo. How can a fully automatic shotgun with built-in laser sight and retractable mono-bayonet be MORE common than a combat shotgun? Our group houseruled the Vanaheim's availability to Rare.


I shoulda house ruled it as "are you Skitarii or in bed with the Lathes? No? **** you, no Vanaheim". Oh god the horror. What were they THHHHHIIIINKING???

#22 Cymbel

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 03:39 PM

To be fair, it DOES say in the book about "A GALAXY OF GUNS" and how you are free to rename stuff and give them new stories. And I don't see why the Arbites don't have the top of line assault shotguns....



#23 Syrius7

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 09:02 PM

To be fair, it DOES say in the book about "A GALAXY OF GUNS" and how you are free to rename stuff and give them new stories. And I don't see why the Arbites don't have the top of line assault shotguns....

Because "Emperor Provides" is not a registered gun franchise in 40K... yet  :P .



#24 Felenis

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 09:56 PM

Because the Arbitres DO have the best shotgun. Dat Vox Legi
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#25 Cymbel

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 10:46 PM

The Vox Legi is an abomination and the warning for the problems to come with the Lathes book. Something new, that never happened before, magically better than most anything else shotgun wise and just....dumb.

 

If they had done some kind of combat shotgun (like the arbites one from Hostile Acquisitions) or the vanaheim, I don't think there would be much issue with it.



#26 Felenis

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 03:10 AM

At least the lathe worlds stuck big TECH PRIEST CLUB ONLY signs on all it's bull stuff. Judgement was just a free for all of broken
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#27 Cymbel

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 03:33 AM

I don't know if that makes it better to be honest, techies are some of the most powerful and versatile classes as is. Look at the factor of the lathes, all the powers of a techie, cheap fel and social advances on top of that? I love the idea of a techie who "greets" dignitaries and so on, a techretary if you will (and yes, I am horrible), a lower ranking member who mans the front door.



#28 Covered in Weasels

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 12:58 PM

techretary


I like this word. Techretary Cymbel may show up as an NPC in a future adventure of mine :D

One quick interjection: what exactly made the Vox Legi ("voice of law?") so broken? I never picked up the Book of Judgement after reading horror stories of stacking armor and overpowered alternate classes. The Vanaheim was a monster already, so I shudder to think of what the Vox Legi does.
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#29 Adeptus-B

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 01:13 PM

The Vox Legi is an abomination and the warning for the problems to come with the Lathes book. Something new, that never happened before, magically better than most anything else shotgun wise and just....dumb.

 

If they had done some kind of combat shotgun (like the arbites one from Hostile Acquisitions) or the vanaheim, I don't think there would be much issue with it.

 

According to the lore, Arbites use Best Quality Combat Shotguns (from the DH Core Rulebook) loaded with Executioner rounds (from Ascension)- any sourcebook that says otherwise is just trying to fill pages, without regard for content.



#30 Cymbel

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 02:05 PM

 

techretary


I like this word. Techretary Cymbel may show up as an NPC in a future adventure of mine :D

One quick interjection: what exactly made the Vox Legi ("voice of law?") so broken? I never picked up the Book of Judgement after reading horror stories of stacking armor and overpowered alternate classes. The Vanaheim was a monster already, so I shudder to think of what the Vox Legi does.

 

 

Thanks :P

 

The issue is that it is a reliable semi automatic 14 shot combat shotgun that uses ASTARTES shotgun shells basically. It has no drawbacks and does 1d10+9, which would be strong enough with the modern scatter (+3 damage in point blank and some close up to hit bonuses), but this is the DH 1e scatter (+1 hit every 2 DoS).

 

According to the lore, Arbites use Best Quality Combat Shotguns (from the DH Core Rulebook) loaded with Executioner rounds (from Ascension)- any sourcebook that says otherwise is just trying to fill pages, without regard for content.

 

 

And a Vanaheim top shotgun pretty much IS the best quality :P

 

Integrated weapon, laser sight, etc.



#31 Covered in Weasels

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 02:25 PM

Oh. Yes, that's pretty strong.

Do not ask why you serve.  Only ask how.

 

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#32 Felenis

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 02:40 PM

Judgement also had the ludicrous Synford pattern Lockshield for 100 thrones, which added like +4 armour to arm, body and either head or leg

And the judgeslayer handcannon, a 100 throne pen 6 handcannon that had the capability to do double damage on a lucky roll

Combine that with powerful career options like the absolutely must take verispex adept, proven innocent, cybermastiff handler

It was a fun but ridiculous book

Edited by Felenis, 13 January 2014 - 02:42 PM.


#33 Cymbel

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 02:43 PM

The judgeslayer was 1d10+2 and had the same chance to do half damage, still crazy though

 

The only downside is that it is 400 thrones and very rare...oh! and it takes 1 full action to load a single shell. Which in my group for tube fed shotguns and the like, 2 full for full mag, 1 full for half mag and so on.



#34 Braddoc

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 11:11 PM

Really, where do you get your players that stalk the books for the most powerful guns ever?

 

My Arbites Player got the Vox Legi, but right now he managed to secure a boltgun from the Judge's fortress's armoury.  He ran with a lasgun fora  bit as well, not to mention his Ius pistol+baton c-c-c-combo

 

The Tech-Preist is a Sollex cultist, so he's the most loaded one with a bolt pistol mecharendrite, an intergrated lathes lasgun/las pistol, the Sollex pattern lasgun/laspistols, dragonscale and a power sword on a mecharendrite as well if I remember it correctly (frankly, it's been a mostly investigative mission for a while now).  It's less about POWA than being a Divine Light of Sollex member with the Mechanicus Seculor alternate ranks, thought it doe fit the bill..oh! and he just secured a Servitor armed with a twin-linked heavy stubber.

 

Assassin got some best quality Emperor's whispers, a Broken down sniper rifle in a case she's been hauling since mission #2, and a pair of best quality silenced stub automatics with red-dots.

 

Guardsman got a plasma gun for the big hits with a carapace and a pair of basic laspistols with mesh reinforced clothing for 'everyday' use.

 

They also looted a bunch of fancy stuff, like lathes blades, silenced autoguns and such, but they never use it..not their style I guess...but I never had a player that had to get that broken item because it was a 50 thrones gimmic item that gave them +1235 armour and can kill an Ork Warboss at 100 meters.



#35 Cail

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 11:37 PM

I always felt like all the 'career' sources books like Blood, Judgement and Worlds were ok so long as they remained entirely self contained. The power creep doesn't seem to get too bad if you play an entirely adeptus mechanicus or ecclesiarchy party, which these books would allow you to do for a nice themed game, kind of like 'Children of the Horned Rat' used to let you play Skaven. Using them with the main DH book is just with other characters... well you've already said it.


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#36 Surak

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 03:23 AM

I've been informed by my players that unless I house-rule Thrones back into DH2 they aren't interested in playing, they also don't like a host of other things and the list grows long every play test but I won't de-rail this tread any further.

 

I know I've had a number of debates on this forum regarding how wealth should work in DH, and I personally think that having Thrones AND Influence makes the most sense of any suggestion I've seen, in fact its the method I've been using in DH1 since ascension was released.

 

As a GM Influence is great, its fast, its straight forward, its very generic. However it also has the massive drawback of removing roleplaying opportunities from the players, they can no longer walk into a dingy bar and judge for themselves how many Thrones they need to slip their underhive informant as they have to break from the in-game roleplaying and have a game-mechanic conversation with the GM as to how much influence they are going to 'spend'. Influence also reduces the amount of intereaction the players have with shop-keepers, barman, dock-managers and the like - why bother trying to track the right individual down and interact with them when its all going to come down to a hand-wave dice roll in the end.

 

Now I'll admit Thrones wasn't the perfect system anyway - and in high-power games (ascension/RT/etc) it made sense to use influence more than Thrones - but I never had players choose a class because of its monthly pay-grade, and we have gone through a lot of DH characters over the years we have played. Every group I have run has included at least one scum or guardsman - two of the careers I hear mentioned most in the "pay-grade" arguments - as thats what the players wanted to play. What tends to happen in our campaigns is the "low-paid" characters tend to have skills that the rest of the group need, and as such the group pulls together to get the team equipment that it needs. We currently have the following characters in our DH1 campaign;

 

Famulous Protege Scum

Shrine World Assassin

Shrine World Psyker (I know this isn't strictly legal - the psyker and assassin players wanted to player a married couple as they are a married couple)

Forge world Tech priest

Mind cleansed (oh how I miss this homeworld) Arbite

Hive world Arbite

Void Born Psyker

 

Now that mix of characters was mostly driven by random tables and few player requests, the two arbites have never roleplayed before, let alone played DH but know something of the universe from the table top game.

 

We did also start with a Crimson Guard and a Forge World Guardswoman but they had to drop out due to real-world considerations.

 

Now what has happen as the campaign has progressed is the assassin has claimed a few large bounty's and endeup bankrolling the rest of the group, the scum has hired a team of administrators to manage several investment accounts that he has setup, and the Arbites and techpriest make use of there personal connections to gain access to the equipment they need without mentioning that they are Inquisition.

 

As they group is currently working under special conditions (because they essentually have a negative Influence score with most of the Inquisition) they couldn't function without there own personal funds, and this makes the "Bean-counting" have purpose, they players are thriving on having to support themselves without th ability to go begging to the big I.

 

Sorry if that rambled, hopefully my ppoint didn't get too lost in the mess.

 

Regards

 

Surak


Knowledge is power, and power corrupts.Therefore library's are the source of all evil.

My DH beta 2 aptitude calc is here https://drive.google...dit?usp=sharing

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#37 Cymbel

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 04:42 AM

No, it is a great post, always neat to hear about other groups. For bringing mind cleansed into DH2, homeworlds have never been easier to make, two + stats, 1 - stat, choose a wound and fate level, then some related talent (even easier for Mind Cleansed, just grab one or two of the things from IH).

 

Onto the system though, I brought this issue up in our group and one player said he has no problems with the new system , mainly because commerce tests can work to get a better modifier to the roll......and the trade in feature (a la Gamestop), which he said makes looting even better, just grab crap off your enemies and barter it for an influence bonus. I personally find that an awful mechanic and the game should never encourage looting, except to grab good gear, you have some use for it or some kind of emergency.

 

Otherwise the biggest complaints are three:

 

1. No Scale modifier, can't buy more than one grenade per roll

2. GQ is -15, which doesn't make sense and makes it hard to get

3. You can't combine items like in RT you could roll for a tricked out autogun, just use the rarity of the rarest item and -5 for every weapon mod stuck on it.

 

And Surak, please make a thread with your problems encountered in playtesting, Any input to improve the game benefits everyone, I just hope it isn't too late.



#38 Surak

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 06:15 AM

Cymbel,

 

Thanks for the comments, I have posted in a few different threads about the problems (and possible solutions) that have been encountered by my gaming group - but as it has been almost impossible to get my players to play DH2 since about Beta2 update4 I didn't feel that I have enough to add to require a new thread.

 

On the subject of looting the best cure I've found for it is very simple, and a little bit evil. Next time the players are moving from one place/planet to another with a massive stash of loot in tow have their destination on high alert for some reason (preferably mission related) and have them subject to a customs/security inspection. Suddenly having to explain to a bunch of heavily armed arbites/PDF/etc why you are trying to bring a large quantity of firearms and other questionable merchendise into the place they are guarding can be an entertaining roleplay session in its own right.

 

Regards

 

Surak

 

(edited for really bad typing)


Edited by Surak, 14 January 2014 - 10:09 AM.

Knowledge is power, and power corrupts.Therefore library's are the source of all evil.

My DH beta 2 aptitude calc is here https://drive.google...dit?usp=sharing

Part of the TeamACES youtube channel http://www.youtube.c...Ha0q8lrmTRGATFA


#39 Covered in Weasels

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 08:25 AM

Surak's idea for dealing with loot-crazy PCs is definitely a good option. Personally, I've never has much of a problem with PC looting in DH -- after I explained to them that the weapons they sell on the black market (where else could you sell battered, blood-stained lasguns taken from heretics?) would likely be purchased by the very heretics they're trying to fight, they stopped that kind of mindless D&D looting immediately. I'm ok with letting them take good items from enemies to upgrade their gear, though our Assassin has a worrying tendency to view well-equipped NPCs as walking loot piñatas.

Do not ask why you serve.  Only ask how.

 

Synonymous names include: Buried in Ferrets, Enveloped by Ermine.

Currently GMing a Dark Heresy 2.0 game and inflicting untold misery upon Martin Lockheed and company.


#40 segara82

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 09:45 AM

@Covered in Weasels: Than let him whack and rob a disguised Noble. When he tries to sell specific items (like gilded guns, ...) let either a Member of his house pop up and demand an explanation or just let the local enforcers do a crackdown on the black market due to the increased amount of guns showing up.

 

There's a little sentence i once picked up somewhere but i really don't know where that is:

Everybody who dies is being missed by someone.

 

May sound cheesy but mostly it is true.

Just think about who would miss the person your PCs just killed.

Even hard core fanatics can have friends and family members that have nothing to do with the cult but still will swear bloody vengeance for his death. Think of the movie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taken_2 which is simply all about that.

So let him have his loot ... and then handle him a paddle for the creek he is in.

 

I'll stick to DH1 and my cash-and-influence setting for now.


Edited by segara82, 14 January 2014 - 09:45 AM.

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