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Thoughts on Update 6


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#41 Myrion

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 01:50 PM

 

Tenebrae: Yes, exactly. That's what I meant by saying that it (Proven) is better on multi-dice weapons. On something like a lasgun though? Nigh useless.

Look at the OW discussion of the Triplex: bogi_khaosa showed me the math there and, well, Proven really is quite worthless unless you have multiple dice or Proven(5+)...

 

In OW Proven is quite useful against formations as a wounding blow counts as a kill. (Houserule that for orks or it gets derpy). But yes, it's best for multidice things, like full auto pistols, rifles and grenades.

 

Edit: Should be mentioned that it will buff proven on a weapon if it already has it, which is quite neat.

 

Apart from the grenades, those aren't multidice weapons, though (well, autopistols and -rifles aren't, other rifles are).
They can generate multiple hits, which are a) technically separate and thus b) ALL have Proven(DoS). 
Frag grenades really need Proven(3? 5?) because now they are way too swingy and go from "it goes off in your hand and doesn't manage to hurt you at all" to it blows up 2m away, now you're in crits. (And suffer 2xRF)



#42 IronFistWarrior

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 01:58 PM

I'm pretty sure you only get to DoS one die per attack, even if that attack generates multiple hits.



#43 Cymbel

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 02:06 PM

I like Tearing better Frag Grenades personally


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#44 Myrion

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 12:16 AM

Yes, you're right. I read 'per damage roll' instead of 'per attack roll'. That's less crazy. 



#45 Ghaundan

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 03:14 AM

 

 

Tenebrae: Yes, exactly. That's what I meant by saying that it (Proven) is better on multi-dice weapons. On something like a lasgun though? Nigh useless.

Look at the OW discussion of the Triplex: bogi_khaosa showed me the math there and, well, Proven really is quite worthless unless you have multiple dice or Proven(5+)...

 

In OW Proven is quite useful against formations as a wounding blow counts as a kill. (Houserule that for orks or it gets derpy). But yes, it's best for multidice things, like full auto pistols, rifles and grenades.

 

Edit: Should be mentioned that it will buff proven on a weapon if it already has it, which is quite neat.

 

Apart from the grenades, those aren't multidice weapons, though (well, autopistols and -rifles aren't, other rifles are).
They can generate multiple hits, which are a) technically separate and thus b) ALL have Proven(DoS). 
Frag grenades really need Proven(3? 5?) because now they are way too swingy and go from "it goes off in your hand and doesn't manage to hurt you at all" to it blows up 2m away, now you're in crits. (And suffer 2xRF)

 

Sorry sorry, HORRIBLE wording by myself. Meant multidice and/or mutlihit. Frags are VERY unreliable as is, this does give them a minium of 6 damage from the dice. Not sure what you're expecting from the background talent but I'm not expecting gamebreaking stuff when it doesn't cost fate points.

Not sure what you mean with b) ALL have Proven(DoS). Last I checked the rules you could replace ONE die with the number of DOS.



#46 Myrion

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 04:04 AM

See above; I misread the rule.



#47 Ghaundan

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 04:37 AM

Alrighty, then at least that's settled. Proven 3 might not be a huge bonus and may restrict which weapons an imperial guard player would like to use I find the latter more problematic then the first, but who knows. I don't see it as a huge problem and the guardsman player in the group liked the idea so we're going with it for now.



#48 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 04:54 PM

Frag grenades are a whopping S3 AP -- in TT, so they are not meant to be very powerful.



#49 Cymbel

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 05:05 PM

That's why I like tearing, it increases the chances of stronger damage, while still allowing a lower level of damage (while minimizing the chances).

 

Proven changes the weapon's range, instead of changing the chances (6-20 vs 2-20). Has anyone done some playtesting with both ideas?


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#50 Elior

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 05:29 PM

Like i've said before, why not make them 2d10 + 5 damage? This solves the whole issue in a very simple way.


Edited by Elior, 14 January 2014 - 05:29 PM.


#51 Cymbel

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 06:39 PM

As others said,greandes are S3 in the tabletop, a diverse range which covers lasguns and shotguns for a few, Frag grenades can't be too powerful and the potential to do up to 20 damage is a lot, the issue is more making it steady damage.


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#52 Tenebrae

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 12:53 AM

Like i've said before, why not make them 2d10 + 5 damage? This solves the whole issue in a very simple way.

That turns them into... not exactly a heavy bolter, but close.

In the TT, they are (as already mentioned) S3 AP- which is the same as a lasgun.

If we add much (especially static damage) to the frag grenades, we'd need to boost the krak grenades as well.

 

Tearing isn't a bad idea, and is likely to make a real difference with the 2 dice already rolled, while still keeping intact most of the unpredictability of frag grenades.



#53 BlaxicanX

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 01:33 AM

Strength 3 on the tabletop implies a 50% chance of killing a regular human. 

 

So with that being the case, I think making a grenade 1d10+5 would be fair. Add tearing or AP to taste. 

 

So you're lowering the maximum damage, but making it more consistently dangerous against baseline foes; assuming the "average" person has 10 wounds, no armor and 30 toughness, an average roll on the damage chart would reduce them to 1 wound (1d10+5 with tearing has an average roll of 7, plus 5 is 12 wounds. Minus the victim's toughness bonus of 3 and you're left with 9 wounds inflicted).

 

You get identical numbers with 2d10 tearing (on average 7+6 damage for 13, so 10 wounds inflicted), but I don't like how high the potential damage is versus how cheap and readily available grenades are. 


Edited by BlaxicanX, 15 January 2014 - 01:57 AM.


#54 Cymbel

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 03:10 AM

The issue is that TT is a heavy abstraction as is, while we are looking for a closer one. So it shouldn't be a 50/50 chance of killing someone (especially because of armor and the crits table), but the current frag grenade is too unpredictable. And while it should be to an extent, we want to modify the bell curve of probability without nailing it in place.



#55 GauntZero

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 04:37 AM

Dont underestimate its doubled chance for RF. That can be dangerous enough, even if the damage itself might be lower.

If you score multiple hits, the chance is good to score at least 1 RF.

Edited by GauntZero, 15 January 2014 - 04:40 AM.

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#56 segara82

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 05:34 AM

I think i'll try Frags with 1d10+5 Pen 0, Tearing. With a range of 6-15 damage it still ranges from wounding an (unarmored) Imperial citizen to completely tearing one apart in light armor. And the Tearing would adequatly represent the nummerous shards flying around. While real grenades can kill up to 40 feet away, the firecrackers sold as Frags in 40k should still be feared or at least respected.

Courage is the mastery of fear - not the absence of fear


#57 Tenebrae

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 07:42 AM

Strength 3 on the tabletop implies a 50% chance of killing a regular human. 

 

So with that being the case, I think making a grenade 1d10+5 would be fair. Add tearing or AP to taste.

Then I'd rather have 2d10 - grenades tend to be very unpredictable. Preferbly Tearing.

 

But as has been discussed a few times before, the length of rounds are not the same. Each attack in the TT represents several in the timeframe of the RPG. So a frag grenade in the TT probably shouldn't have a 50% chance of killing an average person in the RPG, since it represents several such.



#58 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 10:40 AM

Casualties in TT are not deaths; they are being taken out of the combat, more likely by being wounded than killed.

 

Anyway, S3 is lasgun level = somewhere around  1d10+3ish.


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 15 January 2014 - 10:42 AM.


#59 BlaxicanX

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 02:49 PM

1d10+5 with tearing doesn't have a 50% chance of killing someone, fellas...

 

You would have to roll above average to outright kill an unarmored target. 

 

If grenades were 2d10 with tearing, they should go up in cost (or availability, whatever you want to call it). 


Edited by BlaxicanX, 15 January 2014 - 02:59 PM.


#60 Cymbel

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 04:39 PM

Frag Grenades are cheap, easy to make, good anti personell and simple. They SHOULD be good for the cost, they are the default grenade for most situations






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