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Thoughts on Update 6


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#21 AtoMaki

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 06:02 AM

Also - Inescapable Attack + Half Action Aim + Accurate + Standard Attack  = Dead

 

You also need above-average damage roll or a wounded target to get that death. And no armor/light armor on said target. And your target shouldn't be in cover either. 



#22 Myrion

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 06:13 AM

Tenebrae: Yes, exactly. That's what I meant by saying that it (Proven) is better on multi-dice weapons. On something like a lasgun though? Nigh useless.

Look at the OW discussion of the Triplex: bogi_khaosa showed me the math there and, well, Proven really is quite worthless unless you have multiple dice or Proven(5+)...



#23 Jharlax

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 06:24 AM

Best udpate so far. Like the new talent finally they removed the binary feeling of dodge.



#24 Amaimon

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 06:50 AM

 

Also - Inescapable Attack + Half Action Aim + Accurate + Standard Attack  = Dead

 

You also need above-average damage roll or a wounded target to get that death. And no armor/light armor on said target. And your target shouldn't be in cover either. 

 

 

All right - 40BS + 10 short range + 10 standard attack +20 aim = 80

I roll 50 - avarage roll , get 4 DoS. Long las. -40 to dodge.

Damage 3d10+3  = I roll 2,5,8  - change 2 to 4, get 4,5,8 = 20 damage on normal setting. 22 damage and 3 pen on overcharge. A guardsmen with 12 wounds and TB3, with flak armour is on +6 critical after this shot.



#25 AtoMaki

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 06:56 AM

 

Damage 3d10+3  = I roll 2,5,8  - change 2 to 4, get 4,5,8 = 20 damage on normal setting. 22 damage and 3 pen on overcharge. A guardsmen with 12 wounds and TB3, with flak armour is on +6 critical after this shot.

 

...and that's not a death even in the head. To instagib the guardsman with an average roll you will need a normal sniper rifle with expender rounds and aim for the head. And PCs are usually tougher than a Guardsman... 



#26 Felenis

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 12:34 PM

Damage 3d10+3  = I roll 2,5,8  - change 2 to 4, get 4,5,8 = 20 damage on normal setting. 22 damage and 3 pen on overcharge. A guardsmen with 12 wounds and TB3, with flak armour is on +6 critical after this shot.

 
...and that's not a death even in the head. To instagib the guardsman with an average roll you will need a normal sniper rifle with expender rounds and aim for the head. And PCs are usually tougher than a Guardsman...

Still a ridiculous amount in the crits which makes the rest of your session terrifying in combat. My rolled up guardsman started with 10 wounds, less then the example.


I maintain that the real problem is accurate, which needs a nerf like bracing

#27 Elior

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 05:22 PM

 

 

Damage 3d10+3  = I roll 2,5,8  - change 2 to 4, get 4,5,8 = 20 damage on normal setting. 22 damage and 3 pen on overcharge. A guardsmen with 12 wounds and TB3, with flak armour is on +6 critical after this shot.

 
...and that's not a death even in the head. To instagib the guardsman with an average roll you will need a normal sniper rifle with expender rounds and aim for the head. And PCs are usually tougher than a Guardsman...

Still a ridiculous amount in the crits which makes the rest of your session terrifying in combat. My rolled up guardsman started with 10 wounds, less then the example.


I maintain that the real problem is accurate, which needs a nerf like bracing

 

 

And the deleting of the pistol grip entry.


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#28 Cymbel

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 05:25 PM

Actually, I like the updated pistol grip, it finally makes sense. However with accurate, it shouldn't work together. One of my favorite ways to "nerf" Accurate is require a called shot, but that means called shot has to be fixed (either as a half action or a plain modifier).



#29 Felenis

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 06:17 PM

Actually, I like the updated pistol grip, it finally makes sense. However with accurate, it shouldn't work together. One of my favorite ways to "nerf" Accurate is require a called shot, but that means called shot has to be fixed (either as a half action or a plain modifier).


If you tie it to called shot, everyone will just buy the single talent ha negates the penalty, and keep enjoying no downsides. Accurate needs a time commitment beyond things you were going to do anyways

#30 Cymbel

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 06:25 PM

Not everyone can get that talent cheaply and if Called shot is a half action, that is still a +10 they are missing. While untrained folks trying to snipe get a -20 and still miss the +10, so penalizing "snipers" who just picked up the gun and try to shoot every round.

 

Another fix (which I am not a fan of particularly) is to require a full action to gain the benefit. Or you get +1 damage die per half action of aim, so fire every turn folks get +1d10 while snipers taking their time can get the full +2d10.

 

Bracing as a requirement isn't a favorite of mine, penalizing a sniper changing positions.



#31 N0-1_H3r3

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 09:21 PM

Not everyone can get that talent cheaply and if Called shot is a half action, that is still a +10 they are missing. While untrained folks trying to snipe get a -20 and still miss the +10, so penalizing "snipers" who just picked up the gun and try to shoot every round.

 

Another fix (which I am not a fan of particularly) is to require a full action to gain the benefit. Or you get +1 damage die per half action of aim, so fire every turn folks get +1d10 while snipers taking their time can get the full +2d10.

 

Bracing as a requirement isn't a favorite of mine, penalizing a sniper changing positions.

Thing is, being a sniper and being a combat marksman are two different things. The former is a matter of patience and preparation, and while it involves a gun, it isn't really a combat role (the ideal situation is attacking an unaware target from a secure position with plenty of time to prepare - maximised bonuses, no chance to dodge). The latter is what you're talking about doing - using a precision single-shot weapon in the midst of combat.

 

Bracing as a requirement actually makes bipods a viable tool for would-be snipers - as it is, they're essentially superfluous, because Bracing only actually effects heavy weapons (in spite of my suggestions from inside the development process during the creation of Black Crusade and Only War).


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#32 Felenis

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 10:21 PM

Not everyone can get that talent cheaply and if Called shot is a half action, that is still a +10 they are missing. While untrained folks trying to snipe get a -20 and still miss the +10, so penalizing "snipers" who just picked up the gun and try to shoot every round.
 
Another fix (which I am not a fan of particularly) is to require a full action to gain the benefit. Or you get +1 damage die per half action of aim, so fire every turn folks get +1d10 while snipers taking their time can get the full +2d10.
 
Bracing as a requirement isn't a favorite of mine, penalizing a sniper changing positions.

Thing is, being a sniper and being a combat marksman are two different things. The former is a matter of patience and preparation, and while it involves a gun, it isn't really a combat role (the ideal situation is attacking an unaware target from a secure position with plenty of time to prepare - maximised bonuses, no chance to dodge). The latter is what you're talking about doing - using a precision single-shot weapon in the midst of combat.
 
Bracing as a requirement actually makes bipods a viable tool for would-be snipers - as it is, they're essentially superfluous, because Bracing only actually effects heavy weapons (in spite of my suggestions from inside the development process during the creation of Black Crusade and Only War).

Hey N O-1_H3r3 whatever happened to those extra supplements you used to have?

#33 N0-1_H3r3

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 10:29 PM

 

 

Not everyone can get that talent cheaply and if Called shot is a half action, that is still a +10 they are missing. While untrained folks trying to snipe get a -20 and still miss the +10, so penalizing "snipers" who just picked up the gun and try to shoot every round.
 
Another fix (which I am not a fan of particularly) is to require a full action to gain the benefit. Or you get +1 damage die per half action of aim, so fire every turn folks get +1d10 while snipers taking their time can get the full +2d10.
 
Bracing as a requirement isn't a favorite of mine, penalizing a sniper changing positions.

Thing is, being a sniper and being a combat marksman are two different things. The former is a matter of patience and preparation, and while it involves a gun, it isn't really a combat role (the ideal situation is attacking an unaware target from a secure position with plenty of time to prepare - maximised bonuses, no chance to dodge). The latter is what you're talking about doing - using a precision single-shot weapon in the midst of combat.
 
Bracing as a requirement actually makes bipods a viable tool for would-be snipers - as it is, they're essentially superfluous, because Bracing only actually effects heavy weapons (in spite of my suggestions from inside the development process during the creation of Black Crusade and Only War).

Hey N O-1_H3r3 whatever happened to those extra supplements you used to have?

 

To quote myself from elsewhere on these boards:

 

To provide clarification:

 

A little over a year ago (late 2012), FFG and I parted ways for reasons I prefer not to disclose, but which were utterly unrelated to my output as a fan of the games (indeed, it was that output that got me noticed by FFG in the first place). Independently of that, the servers hosting my webpage ceased functioning.

 

At present, I do not have access to the full and original versions of the files that were on my webpage - they're on my PC hard drive, rather than on my laptop, which I cannot presently use in my current situation (it takes up too much room). Consequently, I can't at this point replace my webpage or its contents. Further, I've been somewhat 'burnt out' on 40k in general (I'm even behind on the Horus Heresy novels, in spite of my best efforts) for the last year or so, meaning that I'm not likely to get back to completing various fan projects until I've cleared my head somewhat.

 

I thank everyone who has shown interest and enthusiasm for my work, both professional and personal, over the past few years.


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#34 Darth Smeg

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 06:27 AM

That's too bad :(

 

I've enjoyed your contributions both official and otherwise, and I'm glad to see you posting on these boards again. Cheers!


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#35 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 07:09 AM

The Aim requirement already penalizes a sniper for chaning positions (since he can't Aim while he's moving).

 

That said I like the Brace idea -- but it really doesn't penalize the sniper (OK combat marksman) much. It just adds a half action at the very beginning of initiating combat.



#36 Felenis

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 11:25 AM

The Aim requirement already penalizes a sniper for chaning positions (since he can't Aim while he's moving).
 
That said I like the Brace idea -- but it really doesn't penalize the sniper (OK combat marksman) much. It just adds a half action at the very beginning of initiating combat.


But then he can't freely move around, and is a sitting duck. After the first shot goes off, enemies are gonna want to kill him first, and now he's tied to the floor.

I think it'll curb the stupid trend of the 10 meter sniper, which seems to be a problem a lot of people are suffering

#37 Ghaundan

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 11:33 AM

Tenebrae: Yes, exactly. That's what I meant by saying that it (Proven) is better on multi-dice weapons. On something like a lasgun though? Nigh useless.

Look at the OW discussion of the Triplex: bogi_khaosa showed me the math there and, well, Proven really is quite worthless unless you have multiple dice or Proven(5+)...

 

In OW Proven is quite useful against formations as a wounding blow counts as a kill. (Houserule that for orks or it gets derpy). But yes, it's best for multidice things, like full auto pistols, rifles and grenades.

 

Edit: Should be mentioned that it will buff proven on a weapon if it already has it, which is quite neat.


Edited by Ghaundan, 13 January 2014 - 11:34 AM.


#38 N0-1_H3r3

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 12:06 PM

The Aim requirement already penalizes a sniper for chaning positions (since he can't Aim while he's moving).

 

That said I like the Brace idea -- but it really doesn't penalize the sniper (OK combat marksman) much. It just adds a half action at the very beginning of initiating combat.

I've been suggesting for years that Bracing should provide a flat +10 or +20 on to-hit rolls - stability minimising recoil, etc, and reflecting the difference between spray-and-pray with an autopistol or similar, and sustained fire from an emplaced heavy stubber, etc. It means that emplaced autofire is appropriately deadly, but comes with an opportunity cost - you need to brace first - while not preventing inaccurate autfire with light weapons if you wish.


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#39 Covered in Weasels

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 12:28 PM

I personally don't think requiring Bracing for extra damage on Accurate weapons is a good way to handle the 10m sniper problem. As mentioned before, it discourages snipers from moving and makes for very static combat. That disadvantage can also be negated completely at higher levels by attaching suspensors to the weapon.

I prefer to require a Full Action Aim to gain extra damage dice. This prevents snipers from point-blank headshotting enemies while not encouraging them to stay in one position. Telescopic sights already require a Full Aim to use, so this kind of limitation is already built into the rules. I'm testing this option with my group and it seems to work well so far -- the Assassin actually pulled out a shotgun when some enemies closed to short range instead of just blasting them with a sniper :D

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#40 GauntZero

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 01:37 PM

I also think, Proven should get some kind of buff.

 

It either should be increased by 1 point in each instant it currently exists, or it should get another bonus.

 

What, if a proven weapons damage is the minimum damage it inflicts on targets ? I.e. the enemies defence cannot reduce it below the given value.

If that is too much, maybe half the proven value (rounded up) ?


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