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Thoughts on Update 6


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#1 LuciusT

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 03:46 PM

Interesting...

 

Psy Powers have been revised to be more in line with the old Beta. Fettered is gone. Influence (the psychic power, not the stat) is gone. Pushing is changed. 

 

The Imperial Guard have a new background power, which I'll need to look at more closely.

 

All in all, very interesting...



#2 Radwraith

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 04:01 PM

I like it! They took away the ability of a psyker to essentially avoid any chance of perils of the warp. The ability of the Guardsman to add proven (3) to their weapon when firing on an allies targe is somewhat reminiscent of what a comrade does for you in OW. I like this as well. Still don't like that outcasts get chain weapons at start. That will change as a hourule in my game but I guess you can't have everything!


Edited by Radwraith, 09 January 2014 - 04:02 PM.

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#3 Syrius7

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 04:06 PM

New AT background , like it. Idea : What if backgrounds had two version of bonuses , on passive with no fate point expenditure and other boosted version of passive but requires fate point. 

Influence(Psy Power) changed to fatigue healing power , like it. 

 

Nerf to psy rating bonus to focus power, as a psyker in my campaign , I think I like it. 

New Guardsman bonus seems weak. 
 


Edited by Syrius7, 09 January 2014 - 04:11 PM.


#4 AtoMaki

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 04:12 PM

Hah! The Fettered power level is gone! Good riddance! 

 

Also, it seems that all unsanctioned psykers are also automatically Unbound. Guess this is a big thing for any non-AAT psyker...


Edited by AtoMaki, 10 January 2014 - 06:04 AM.


#5 Felenis

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 04:14 PM

I love the psy changes, more dynamic and interesting.

Guardsman ability is sooooo boring though.
Current ability, and a lot of ideas in the thread were great, such as pinning on regular shots.
Instead we get Proven (Useless). Yuck. I don't think anyone has ever been excited about proven.

Better idea would be:
Hammer of the Emperor: When a guardsman character fires at a target an ally shot at within the last round, their attack causes a (+0) Pinning test.
If you want to emphasize the Lasgun, make this Las only.

Edited by Felenis, 09 January 2014 - 04:17 PM.


#6 Naviward

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 04:45 PM

Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyy.!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Ahem...I am pleased by the new psychic power rules.


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#7 Kaihlik

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 04:56 PM

FFG seems to always overvalue Proven, its just not that great a rule below 4, don't get me wrong its kinda nice but not really a game winning ability.



#8 Felenis

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 05:05 PM

FFG seems to always overvalue Proven, its just not that great a rule below 4, don't get me wrong its kinda nice but not really a game winning ability.

I betcha at the first Deathwatch playtest, someone had a proven (2) heavy bolter, and that single point of damage killed a daemon prince, and it became a game of legend.

As it stands, this ability is crap. It's not useful at low levels. Auto guns and lasguns will do 6 damage, which can't even hurt most goons, and at high levels it's also pointless, since that one point is either overkill anyways on tiny mooks, or laughed off by high level monsters.

Guardsmen should get some variant of pinning ability from OW

Edited by Felenis, 09 January 2014 - 05:12 PM.

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#9 Syrius7

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 05:11 PM

I think that proven will never shine at lower levels unless :

A) more things have proven as a baseline , for example all the guns and grenades have a proven quality of varying sizes
B) proven bonuses stack

C) squigs... 



#10 Covered in Weasels

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 08:05 PM

Proven seems good on some weapons:
-- Ones with multiple damage dice: grenades, Accurate weapons, meltaguns, Maximal plasma guns, some heavy weapons (multilasers, autocannon). Admittedly the meltagun and heavy weapons don't really need a damage boost, but it could be helpful at lower levels.
-- Weapons with high Penetration but relatively low damage (rapid fire helps too): hellguns, heavy stubbers, manstoppered autoguns, etc. They can go through the armor of squishier enemies and Proven guarantees that they will do at least a little damage.
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#11 Myrion

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 11:38 PM

On guns with only one damage die it's even worse because those effectively have Proven(DoS) anyway... On those with more dice it's a bit better, yeah.


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#12 Amaimon

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 02:34 AM

Give it at least proven (5) to be usefull.

 

Im not sure if I like new Psychic powers. They are a bit confusing. So if you use less power, you have a higher chance of succeeding the focus power test?



#13 Naviward

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 03:02 AM

Give it at least proven (5) to be usefull.

 

Im not sure if I like new Psychic powers. They are a bit confusing. So if you use less power, you have a higher chance of succeeding the focus power test?

 

Yes, that's pretty much it. Make sense to me, using less power is easier to control.

 

On the proven thing, Proven(3) changes the average dice roll for the guardsmen from 5.5 to 5.8, which does seem hardly worth it.

 

Proven(5) changes the average to 6.5, which would be the same as giving them a +1 (with the obvious advantage of more reliable results and disadvantage of less likely to get higher results), which doesn't seem that bad at all.

 

So Proven(5) or +1 to damage sounds like a winner.


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#14 Cymbel

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 03:07 AM

I found out you can substitute 1 die roll with the DoS you had for the attack, that is like having an automatic proven for most weapons.....which just weakens proven even more. Still, something like Tearing would help to fix frag grenades (especially because the tearing description really fits with the actual effects of a frag grenade. Proven wouldn't be as useful honestly, except in trying to bump minimum damage. In addition, I love the changes to the fire bomb. I have seen people go "It doesn't say it can't work in a RPG or Grenade Launcher, so it should be no issue" as well as "It doesn't say mechanically it needs to be set on fire". Really a great change, which still keeps them useful as a cheap and very easily craftable item, but has limitations (especially as they are better than frags in a lot of ways). On that note, how are we supposed to light them?


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#15 Amaimon

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 03:52 AM

Yeah, grenades should do something like 1d10+8 damage, to cripple normal humans, and to seriously harm others. Giving them tearing would make similiar avarage roll.



#16 Tenebrae

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 03:55 AM

On guns with only one damage die it's even worse because those effectively have Proven(DoS) anyway... On those with more dice it's a bit better, yeah.

As far as I can tell, you can trade out only one dice per attack, so if you autofire gun scores 7 hits, only one of them get Proven(DoS).



#17 seanpp

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 04:01 AM

I found myself with a significant reaction when reading the new Telepathica Background Bonus that I'll share here.

 

I do like the general concept of Telepathica PCs being able to somewhat mitigate a Psychic Phenomena result - however, this new one from Update #6 necessitates a protocol that is so Out-of-Character.  For every Phenomena event, it calls for the psyker player to go to that Table and compare three different results - the roll they got, their WPB higher and their WPB lower - and see which one they want.  Again conceptually, I like Telepathica psykers being able to have a little edge on Phenomena results - but the mandatory table min-max’ing seems kind of an immersion killer.  In my game, up to now, I’ve had the player roll and then I narrate the In-Character results to all the players.  Per the new Telepathica Bonus, there’s no way I can do that anymore.
 
To further illustrate the point, I’ve considered doing my own Phenomena Table to better curtail the inevitable MetaGaming.  To wit, say the player rolled something particularly low on the Phenomena Table & I describe that, for example, darkness envelopes them that Round.  They typically reason that the “low roll” couldn’t be that bad and so they don’t worry much about it.  Whereas, with the same description & a high roll they’d all be really worried - Metagame special.  So I’ve considered doing my own table with random results below 75 so they’d have no idea based on the roll and so the narration maintains a lot of uncertainty & suspense.  My point is that the Telepathica Bonus goes hard in the opposite direction having the player essentially check a menu of which result they want.  Good Bonus concept but this particular execution seems uber rough on the immersion.
 
Conceptually, let me offer the opinion that of arguably anything in the entire universe of DH, psychic mishaps probably most call for “What in the hell just happened??” from the players, which is a fantastic situation whenever you can get it.  So you want the system’s structure to support that uncertainty as much as possible - it is the warp, after all.
 
So the Telepathica Bonus automatically subtracting the psyker’s WPB from a Phenomena roll takes this out of the equation (though it still locks you into strictly graduated threat levels on the table, like it is now, which, as I've mentioned, I find causes quite a bit of metagaming).  I assume FFG obviously considered this but I guess were concerned about the times the adjusted result, because of circumstances, would actually be worse in that particular case?  But I don't think players choosing which Phenomena result they want off of the table is worth it.

Edited by seanpp, 10 January 2014 - 04:10 AM.


#18 Amaimon

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 04:10 AM

Oh, and I don't like that when pushing, you can still avoid having Phenomena, by rolling double. It's a small chance, but, toghether with Psykana (or AAT whatevs) background, realy mitigates the chances of rolling Perils of the Warp. Which is not a good think.

 

Yaaay to Dull Pain aka Galvanize.



#19 AtoMaki

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 05:07 AM

So the Telepathica Bonus automatically subtracting the psyker’s WPB from a Phenomena roll takes this out of the equation (though it still locks you into strictly graduated threat levels on the table, like it is now, which, as I've mentioned, I find causes quite a bit of metagaming). 

 

Just one thing to add: remember that the AAT character is not necessary a psyker. The background ability is not neccesary a magical psyker thing but it can be something casual too, like a short prayer or a punch in the face (the later being the favored method of the non-psyker AAT character of my group).  



#20 Amaimon

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 05:53 AM

Also - Inescapable Attack + Half Action Aim + Accurate + Standard Attack  = Dead

I liked the verion from 5th update better if at all. At least should be tier 3 talent.


Edited by Amaimon, 10 January 2014 - 05:54 AM.





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