Jump to content



Photo

Update #6 is live!


  • Please log in to reply
34 replies to this topic

#21 bogi_khaosa

bogi_khaosa

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,111 posts

Posted 30 January 2014 - 04:14 PM

How is that counterintuitive? Several mighty shot would be better then a single one, no?

 

Counterintuitive thematically, to me personally. :)

 

It seems to me that the most obvious solution to the Great Accurate Problem is just to require a Called Shot to use it.


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 30 January 2014 - 04:23 PM.


#22 Cymbel

Cymbel

    Member

  • Members
  • 735 posts

Posted 30 January 2014 - 06:30 PM

It really does seem to simplify matters, but brings you back to the problem of called shots being awful.


  • Darth Smeg likes this

#23 Ghaundan

Ghaundan

    Member

  • Members
  • 378 posts

Posted 31 January 2014 - 05:36 AM

Are they awful though? I know called shot rules are WONKY, but is bad? Once the enemy gets into cover, let's say...a wall then you effectively only hit arms/head which screws you over so badly when it comes to ranged attack. So...yeah, I guess I agree that the rules for called shot make little/no sense but i don't find called shot inherently bad.



#24 Tenebrae

Tenebrae

    Member

  • Members
  • 989 posts

Posted 31 January 2014 - 09:55 AM

Math time!

Invoking math time and not showing your workings is an automatic F.



#25 Cymbel

Cymbel

    Member

  • Members
  • 735 posts

Posted 31 January 2014 - 02:08 PM

It is awful because it requires a full action to use and has a -20, while single shot and aiming is +20. Called shot as a variant of a single shot attack with a -20 penalty let's you use a half aim to bring it down to -10 which is more doable. Called shot as a -20 modifier (as in DH1e) makes the final modifier a +0 with half aim and single shot. As a -30 (to counteract the single shot +10) it brings it down to a -10 like the half shot example.

 

Then with the called shot talent (-20 to +0, so let's assume +20 bonus to called shots)

 

It would bring the half action called shot +half aim to +10.

 

-20 modidifier = +10 again

-30 modifier = +0

 

The key point is a half action though and preferably a variant of single shot. It lets you have more tactical flexibility and for anyone who thinks that these shots should be hard to make (even with the talent), there are a lot of expert shooters who excel at this.

 

Basically, I want called shot, even with aiming (and maybe the talent) to be not as viable as making a single shot, but with good BS and training, certainly doable and a viable option.


  • Darth Smeg likes this

#26 Elior

Elior

    Member

  • Members
  • 503 posts

Posted 31 January 2014 - 04:54 PM

In my opinion, called shot should be more difficult. Expert marksmen don't have to hit moving targets while in live combat. If called shots aren't going to be difficult, then players are going to use them every round that they can.


  • Ghaundan likes this

#27 Covered in Weasels

Covered in Weasels

    Member

  • Members
  • 519 posts

Posted 31 January 2014 - 05:49 PM

Our group playtested Accurate weapons with an alternate rule: the bonus damage dice are only granted if you spend a Full Action aiming. We liked the way this rule played; it let you fire quick snap shots that did "only" 1d10+4 damage with 3 Pen when needed, but if you really wanted to put the hurt on somebody you'd take a Full Aim and let loose on the next turn. Telescopic sights already have this limitation built in so it doesn't require any core rule changes, and the lack of a Bracing requirements prevents awkward rules abuse with suspensors/Bulging Biceps.

I really like the fact that a good aimed shot with an Accurate weapon can take out an average enemy in one hit. So many games have no way to one-shot enemies with a sniper from hiding using RAW, but the Accurate weapons can do that and feel great to use. Therefore, I think nerfing the damage is not a good idea because it saps much of the fun out of Accurate weapons. Restricting the bonus damage to Full Aimed shots keeps the high damage potential but makes the players work for it a little more.

 

Enemies can also counter sniper-wielding players by shooting them while they are Aiming. If the player elects to Dodge the hit, they lose their Aiming bonus. This encourages more tactical combat as players are encouraged to snipe from a safe position rather than running about in the open 360 no-scoping n00bs.

This is also an indirect buff to Called Shots. Since players have to spend a Full Action aiming before they can get the bonus Accurate dice, they will be more inclined to spend their following turn to make a Called Shot. With the talent that lowers penalties for Called Shots, they'll only miss out on the +10 to hit from Single Shots. Called Shot would not be objectively better than a normal attack in all situations, but it would be far superior if your target is in cover.

 

 

Honestly, the ability to hit a target behind heavy cover in the location of your choice is quite a strong ability. I don't think Called Shot really needs a buff -- IMO it should be used when you really want to hit a specific location on a target, but in normal circumstances a Standard Attack would be superior.


Edited by Covered in Weasels, 31 January 2014 - 05:50 PM.

  • bogi_khaosa likes this

Do not ask why you serve.  Only ask how.

 

Synonymous names include: Buried in Ferrets, Enveloped by Ermine.

Currently GMing a Dark Heresy 2.0 game and inflicting untold misery upon Martin Lockheed and company.


#28 Cymbel

Cymbel

    Member

  • Members
  • 735 posts

Posted 31 January 2014 - 06:01 PM

Remember, a +0 is still challenging.



#29 Darth Smeg

Darth Smeg

    Lord Nitpicker

  • Members
  • 1,647 posts

Posted 03 February 2014 - 08:01 AM

In my opinion, called shot should be more difficult. Expert marksmen don't have to hit moving targets while in live combat. If called shots aren't going to be difficult, then players are going to use them every round that they can.

 

They are more difficult.

 

The "problem" is that with the OTHER changes that are introduced (compared to DH1) They become ALOT MORE difficult.

 

Consider DH1. Called shots are Hard (-20). Not just Difficult (-10), but Hard.

In DH2, they are still Hard, but they are now also a Full Action (so they take longer), and the "baseline" they compare to (Standard Attacks) have become Ordinary (+10).

 

So what used to be a -20 difference has become -30, AND it takes longer so you can no longer mitigate some of the difficulty by Aiming.

 

Thus, in a single turn, you used to be able to do either a) Aimed Standard for a +10 shot, or b) Aimed Called Shot for a -10 shot.

 

Now, you choose between a) Aimed Standard for a +20 shot, or b) Called Shot for a -20 shot. 

 

The difference is doubled.

 

For no real reason.


Edited by Darth Smeg, 03 February 2014 - 08:06 AM.

  • Cymbel likes this

Tarald - The Dark Lord of Smeg

 

My House Rules for using Only War (and more) for Dark Heresy games


#30 Cymbel

Cymbel

    Member

  • Members
  • 735 posts

Posted 03 February 2014 - 12:36 PM

Yes! That is my point exactly.

 

-20 Full Action

 

VS

 

+20 Half Aim + Standard Shot

 

I don't mind it being hard, but the current state is absurd. A -20 Half action changes it up to be useful, though a -30 modifier would let you just aim your shot where you want practically (to equal DH1 after single shot modifier)

 

Also, on that note.

 

Last session my PC made a shot on a thick wire cable to knock out a "turrets" power supply, that was a -30 before range, but with half aim and single shot I could mitigate the penalty. If it was a person's hand let's say it would be -20 before range, but with no +10/20 chance to bring it in my favor, I would have missed.



#31 bogi_khaosa

bogi_khaosa

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,111 posts

Posted 06 February 2014 - 10:37 AM

Hitting particular parts in the middle of a firefight is really really hard. MUCH harder than in this game system, where people are freakishly accurate.

 

Hitting a wire cable -- what, 5 cm in diameter? That's really really hard. Try it. Throw a rock a a 5-cm spot from 10 meters away.


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 06 February 2014 - 10:39 AM.

  • Elior likes this

#32 Amaimon

Amaimon

    Member

  • Members
  • 275 posts

Posted 11 February 2014 - 04:08 AM

Throwing is harder, than hitting it with a gun with any kind of sights.



#33 Cymbel

Cymbel

    Member

  • Members
  • 735 posts

Posted 11 February 2014 - 04:28 AM

This is an Imperium of Man cable, thick, big and banded, think the kind you see on a lascannon.



#34 bogi_khaosa

bogi_khaosa

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,111 posts

Posted 11 February 2014 - 12:40 PM

Shooting a 5-cm cable, or 10-cm cable, from any distance in the middle of a firefight is going to be hard, period.

 

This is smaller than a housecat.



#35 Cymbel

Cymbel

    Member

  • Members
  • 735 posts

Posted 11 February 2014 - 08:27 PM

Which is why it was the smallest size penalty.






© 2013 Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc. Fantasy Flight Games and the FFG logo are ® of Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc.  All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact | User Support | Rules Questions | Help | RSS