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Scaling mobs or keep as is


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#1 Vamron

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 12:46 PM

Ok y'all here is something I would like to here your opinion on. Would you prefer off the enemy's scaled with your PC or just keep the stats from the book.I would like to here from both GM and PC. I'm just more curious what y'all think thank you

#2 Lynata

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 12:56 PM

Personally, I hate scaling. To me, such concepts always feel as if the world would revolve around the players, rather than the players having to fit into the world. Why are all those hive gangers still a tough fight when, thanks to my training and equipment, I should now be better than them?

 

It's a different thing if you just come up with special variants of enemies, mind you - for example the inner circle of the aforementioned hive gangers, or a bunch of mob lieutenants. People who, by virtue of their own path in life, have also received training and equipment that makes them somewhat better than the foot soldiers around them.

 

Just don't let everyone get better simply because the PCs have gained a level. One of my biggest gripes with contemporary MMO design. It kind of completely negates your own character's advancement, because ... hey, why bother, everything will still be just as difficult?

 

But again, that's just my feelings on the subject. I'm sure a lot of people may not mind, given the success of those MMOs. :P


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#3 Kshatriya

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 01:18 PM

Why would your GM throw normal hive gangers at you at, say, R6, and actually use combat rules to model that fight? Hugely one-sided fits that overwhelmingly favor the PCs are best handled narratively. Boring, set-up-to-curbstomp fights shouldn't happen, considering how long combat takes to resolve.


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#4 Lynata

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 02:03 PM

If that question was directed at me - gangers were just the very first example that came to mind. ;)

 

The logic applies to any kind of enemy the GM thinks would have to be scaled up in order to present a challenge. In fairness, though, gangers and similar low-level scum exist just about anywhere, and even though the GM may not have intended them as an encounter, the players' actions might well force a confrontation.

 

I agree with the idea of simply resolving such things narratively at some point, though it may be difficult to gauge the exact threshold.


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#5 Kshatriya

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 02:51 PM

Not necessarily directed at you. I just don't like breaking out the combat rules slowdown unless there's a real point to it.

 

I mean, if a group of higher-rank acolytes has to shake down some gangers at the beginning of an investigation, and those gangers wanna fight over it, I say roll a couple d10 and deduct that from their current ammo supply and move on. :D

 

But I generally agree with you. Scaling in RPGs doesn't make sense, but bigger threats respond to you. No comment on MMOs. ;)


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#6 Brother Orpheo

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 04:00 PM

Removed for derailment.   


Edited by Brother Orpheo, 07 January 2014 - 04:02 PM.

=][=


#7 darkforce

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 08:03 PM

I also think scaling feels off. Hell, If the Acolytes reach Ranks 6+, they deserve to have some curbstompy moments. And most times those fights lead into the PCs messily dispatching a few of them and the rest running away horrified by the monsters who just invaded their turf ;)

 

Also, why not give them the chance for some truly memorable and over-the-top fatalities? Not like the triumph will last long once the real threat shows up to turn them into minced meat.


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#8 Braddoc

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 07:54 AM

If that question was directed at me - gangers were just the very first example that came to mind. ;)

 

The logic applies to any kind of enemy the GM thinks would have to be scaled up in order to present a challenge. In fairness, though, gangers and similar low-level scum exist just about anywhere, and even though the GM may not have intended them as an encounter, the players' actions might well force a confrontation.

 

I agree with the idea of simply resolving such things narratively at some point, though it may be difficult to gauge the exact threshold.

 

Like Lynata said, just because your rank 8 acolytes are moving in the underhive that, by some twist of fate, they're facing off an underhive gang that just so happen to have its members with stats in the 50s-60s, carapace armour, and plasma weaponry.  They'll end up facing a dozen or so punks with autoguns and a leather vest (if they're lucky) and after seeing 4-6 of them getting it rather quickly they'll retreat.

 

The only 'scaling' done would be with the difficulty/complexity of the missions they faced, and while that also means to an extent that most of the time the opposition is better armed, equipped and stat-wise better, every boss got minions; I mean using that scaling logic James Bond would be facing henchmen/boss equivalent all movie long starting from the 15th movie and followings but he doesn't; he still got unnamed minions who don't stand a chance facing him all the time.

 

Lynata spoke of MMOs, well, the new Fallout/Elder Scrolls game got that problem as well; nothing removes immersion when after trailing some small-time grave robbers, you see one of them armoured with top notch glass armour and armed with some magic flaming sword of ultra-death...but it's an illiterate grave-robber!


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#9 Lynata

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 08:01 AM

one of them armoured with top notch glass armour and armed with some magic flaming sword of ultra-death...but it's an illiterate grave-robber!

 

A very lucky illiterate grave-robber ...?  :D

 

But now that you mention it, this must've been one of the things I disliked the most about Oblivion ...



#10 Braddoc

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 09:58 AM

 

one of them armoured with top notch glass armour and armed with some magic flaming sword of ultra-death...but it's an illiterate grave-robber!

 

A very lucky illiterate grave-robber ...?  :D

 

But now that you mention it, this must've been one of the things I disliked the most about Oblivion ...

 

 

Yeah 'lucky'...it would have fallen into that category, and perhaps I would not even have noticed the scaling, if I didn't completed this mission  in a previously save that got corrupted and the guy had iron heavy armour and a normal longsword...of course I only boosted my lockpicking a couple of levels when Mr. glass armour showed up...also guards knowing you murder someone when no one saw it..HOW??!?!?!  In DH you murder soemone don't talk/left proof you're in the clear


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#11 Adeptus-B

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 04:12 PM

I scale the principle opponents to the Acolytes' Rank, but keep any incidental NPCs as squishy as is appropriate to their role. So, if the PCs are hunting a rogue psyker through a hive city, the psyker is calculated to be a tough challenge, but any random gangers the PCs run into during their hunt are just standard gangers- they aren't all magically carrying boltguns and meltaguns just because the PCs are now 'high level'...


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#12 Yivrael

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 09:09 AM

Personally, I hate scaling. To me, such concepts always feel as if the world would revolve around the players, rather than the players having to fit into the world. Why are all those hive gangers still a tough fight when, thanks to my training and equipment, I should now be better than them?

 

It's a different thing if you just come up with special variants of enemies, mind you - for example the inner circle of the aforementioned hive gangers, or a bunch of mob lieutenants. People who, by virtue of their own path in life, have also received training and equipment that makes them somewhat better than the foot soldiers around them.

 

Just don't let everyone get better simply because the PCs have gained a level. One of my biggest gripes with contemporary MMO design. It kind of completely negates your own character's advancement, because ... hey, why bother, everything will still be just as difficult?

 

But again, that's just my feelings on the subject. I'm sure a lot of people may not mind, given the success of those MMOs. :P

Hey who doesn't want to fight level 67 boars!  


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#13 Lynata

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 09:37 AM

Depends on what they drop, eh? :P

 

430992-bigthumbnail.jpg


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#14 GauntZero

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 11:47 AM

I think sending more is a better way to scale than to make them unnaturally stronger.

 

As an alternatiove you can add 1 stronger guy who is kind of the alpha of the group.


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#15 Kshatriya

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Posted 26 January 2014 - 05:00 PM

The biggest problem with sending more is that combat is already slow, and easily plowing through mooks is occasionally exciting, but usually just a way to fill time (or a waste of time, depending on what other goals the group is trying to accomplish).



#16 Cogniczar

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Posted 26 January 2014 - 05:17 PM

speed things up with low magnitude horde rules. You still get combat, the players get to curb  stomb the hiver 'horde', and there's still some small chance to harm one of the players in the process. It's the route I take to simplify but not dismiss such encounters at the higher end of the spectrum. 

 

No combat in my DH should be point and win from the players point of view, unless it's a trap from me to bolster a false sense of confidence. =D



#17 GauntZero

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 08:05 AM

I also think a light version of the hordes rules would also be good for DH.

How to handle small mobs of 3-10 more easily and still challenging.

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#18 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 10:36 AM

Playing the NPCs intelligently will go a long way to making up for comparatively low stats/armament.

 

A hive gang composed of grizzled veterans of the criminal world used to violence and living by their wits with death around every corner will play a lot differently than a hive gang composed of imbeciles with guns.

 

Cover, ambushes, suppressing fire, overwatching, outflanking, etc.



#19 GauntZero

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 11:54 AM

I understand what you mean. Never the less it would be nice to have some horde rules to be able to make fast skirmishes.


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#20 segara82

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 12:10 PM

Creature Anathema, Page 134: Simple Minions: Only one wound, so any hit can kill them, making it easy to dispatch of nameless mooks.

I find that rather helpful when i don't want the fights to drag on to much.


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