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Can Mono bullets be a thing


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#21 Fgdsfg

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 12:36 PM

I wouldn't be so quick as to call a Harlequin's Kiss a "monofilament gun"; after all, the barbed wires and monofilaments it fires come back again, going in and out at amazing speeds.

But I don't see how there could be Mono-Bullets. Mono stands for Monofilament or Monomolecular. A Mono-Knife, for example, literally has an edge a single molecule wide, which is why it can cut into almost anything with ease.

The Imperium already has a form of monomolecular bullets; they're called needles, and are fired with special Needle Rifles (or Pistols). There's no way you'd fit a monomolecular bullet into a regular SP or Bolter weapon.


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#22 Lynata

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 04:32 PM

The way I'd fluff it would be to simply make the tip of the bullet consist of a single molecule, and then only slowly growing in thickness, probably leading to a somewhat shorter main section, or requiring the bullet to compensate by a greater increase in thickness somewhere in the middle.

 

wba3.jpg


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#23 Boss Gitsmasha

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 05:34 PM

… So basically, exactly like what a Manstopper is. Why are we still having this discussion?


"Oomans are pink an' soft, not tough an' green like da Boyz. Dey'z all da same size too, so dey'z always arguin' about who's in charge, 'cos dere's no way o' tellin' c'ept fer badges an' ooniforms an' fings. When one o' dem wants ta lord it over da uvvers, 'e says 'I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me', or 'I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good'. Da funny fing is, 'arf of 'em believe it an' da uvver 'arf don't, so 'e has ta hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. Wot a lot o' mukkin' about if yer asks me. An' while dey'z all arguin' wiv each uvver over who's da boss, da Orks can clobber da lot."


#24 Lynata

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 06:20 PM

Exchange of ideas, as in any discussion. Arguably, some posters still feel the need to add input - such as the question of whether Mono is Manstopper or whether Mono is not possible at all as a bullet. Why would you think a debate is useless just because you think so?

 

I have already mentioned on page 1 that you could say that Manstopper = Mono, yet this is not how the round has been fluffed in the book, so anyone who wants to add a "real" Mono bullet still has some room to implement such ideas.

 

That's leaving aside a growing desire of mine to rename the current Manstopper into Mono, and Dumdum into Manstopper, just because in real life Dumdums are Manstoppers, and Manstopper rounds have little to do with increased ballistic armour penetration (to explain my initial confusion earlier in the thread). A misnomer that Black Industries may have been copying from GW's original Inquisitor game.

Of course, this could also be discarded as in-universe loss of knowledge/understanding, though!


Edited by Lynata, 11 January 2014 - 11:03 PM.

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#25 Braddoc

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 10:03 PM

No, mono is short for monofilament. It denotes both that an item is bladed and that the blade is edged with a monomolecular filament providing the perfect cutting edge.

 

 

The-Sword-Gun.jpg

 

Mono bullet.  REAL end of story.

 

even a way to get a primitive gun if you don't get your bullets mono treated.


Edited by Braddoc, 11 January 2014 - 10:04 PM.

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#26 Tenebrae

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 05:18 AM

That's leaving aside a growing desire of mine to rename the current Manstopper into Mono, and Dumdum into Manstopper, just because in real life Dumdums are Manstoppers, and Manstopper rounds have little to do with increased ballistic armour penetration (to explain my initial confusion earlier in the thread).

+1

Including the bit about the confusion



#27 Angel of Death

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 10:55 AM

 

No, mono is short for monofilament. It denotes both that an item is bladed and that the blade is edged with a monomolecular filament providing the perfect cutting edge.

 

 

The-Sword-Gun.jpg

 

Mono bullet.  REAL end of story.

 

even a way to get a primitive gun if you don't get your bullets mono treated.

 

?? would that allow a Moritat to use a gun??   ;)


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#28 Braddoc

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 12:50 PM

Hmm...an interesting concept indeed.



#29 Askil

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 01:34 AM

As I said before Mono is short for monofilament (which makes something mono edged by being secured along the tip of a significantly thicker blade) if one was to create a mono bullet it`s tip would have to be flattened (like a shuriken, knife or arrowhead) crosshatched (like a philips head screwdriver) or chisel shaped to make the tip of the bullet into a blade .

 

None of which are partiularly ideal as they would be largely incompatible with standard ballistics due to their shapes being negatively affected by the spin a rifled barrel would impose.



#30 Fgdsfg

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 02:44 AM

As I said before Mono is short for monofilament (which makes something mono edged by being secured along the tip of a significantly thicker blade) if one was to create a mono bullet it`s tip would have to be flattened (like a shuriken, knife or arrowhead) crosshatched (like a philips head screwdriver) or chisel shaped to make the tip of the bullet into a blade .

 

None of which are partiularly ideal as they would be largely incompatible with standard ballistics due to their shapes being negatively affected by the spin a rifled barrel would impose.

Monomolecular, actually. Monofilaments is a related concept unique (or as unique as it can be - it's a big galaxy, after all) to the Eldar.

You could conceivably have bullets that are monomolecular at the tip, but I can't see how such a thing would function effectively or how it would actually help with penetration in a meaningful manner.


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#31 Tenebrae

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 03:32 AM

Monomolecular, actually. Monofilaments is a related concept unique (or as unique as it can be - it's a big galaxy, after all) to the Eldar.

You could conceivably have bullets that are monomolecular at the tip, but I can't see how such a thing would function effectively or how it would actually help with penetration in a meaningful manner.

Details:

 

I have to assume the discussion is about bullets for primitive weapons. For standard SP weapons, we already have manstoppers, doing the same job only better.

 

Mono isn't specified any further, but is routinely used to mean monofilament (even by people who then go on to assuming properties that are closer to monomolecular).

 

Most bullets are made of metal, especially I'd assume that the outer coating of primitive bullets is made of a fairly pure metal. Metals do not by themselves form into molecules but rather into crystal lattices. Thus 'mono' would refer to a monocrystaline material, which is entirely possible. I've seen monocrystaline rods of silicon significantly larger than most bullets. But that would be a bad idea - monocrystaline materials are comparatively soft. You just about be able to scratch those silicon rods with your nail. Ofcourse the surface would oxidize and form all the usual surface defects, but it would still be a crystaline material, not molecular.

 

You could get a bit that's atomically sharp - that is a a single atom wide at the tip - but they really aren't very stable, nor particularly strong. Alot of common-sense-physics break down when we get to that scale.


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#32 Fgdsfg

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 04:41 AM

Shut up, Tenebrae.

It's spaaaaaaaace maaaagiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiic!

Space magic, space magic, ooooh.

Space magic, oh, oh, oh.

It's a kinda space magic.

Spaaaaaaaceeee maaaaagic.


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#33 Tenebrae

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 04:54 AM

let's do the time warp again?


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#34 Darth Smeg

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 05:26 AM

Sure, but the "mono" upgrade was also written to be applicable to blunt weapons with no sharp edges. The Fine Errata says:

 

“The Mono upgrade may be applied to any melee weapon, 

but when applied to close-combat weapons that do not use 
an edge (e.g., hammers, mauls, etc.) it is defi ned differently. GMs 
are encouraged to come up with interesting defi nitions for non-
edged weapons. For example, a hammer with the Mono upgrade 
is defi ned as having a pneumo-shock enhancement. The in-game 

effects remain the same."

 

So man-stoppers are in fact "mono-bullets" as the mechanical effect is to increase their penetration. No need to re-invent it :)


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#35 Tenebrae

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 05:35 AM

So man-stoppers are in fact "mono-bullets" as the mechanical effect is to increase their penetration. No need to re-invent it :)

second post in this thread:

I think you want to use the mono upgrade for bullets? For muskets possibly?
Otherwise you'd just use manstoppers presumably?



#36 segara82

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 06:49 AM

In one of my SR(3.01) rounds a player came up with the idea of monofilament flechette rounds for his shotgun. After careful consideration i allowed it, since it would be the most expensive ammo. And the fact that simply firing one would rip the inner side of any barrel apart.

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#37 Cymbel

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 04:11 PM

Flechette rounds for shotguns appear in Hostile Acquisitions, functioning as normal buckshot, except Pen 2 and 10% more range (and the option of toxic coated ones)

 

flechette_shotgun_rounds.jpg

 

https://en.wikipedia.../wiki/Flechette

 

Apparently in Vietnam the USA used them in bundles of 20 inside a shotgun shell.

 

As for muskets, I can't see them being stronger (and not primitive), the old barrels tended to be weaker as well as the black powder wasn't as explosive as what it is used nowadays. They used big bore lead which is why they are still effective enough when they hit, but against modern (and future) body armor, I don't see it doing that much damage with the lower velocity and such

 

My gun friend had this to say on the matter.

 

depends on how soft the lead is, heavy, solid rounds will break bones but tumble through neat and clean, because they won't expand well and the low velocity doesn't dump as much energy, but if they are loaded with modern rounds then they are deadly

 

here is a pic of them

 

16880.jpg

 

He tentatively stats them at 1d10+2 for a pistol, 1d10+3 for a musket, still primitive, could maybe lost inaccurate but that requires changing the range brackets. I hope that helps!

 

Edit: I deleted the bit about saboted flechettes, I was thinking about a proposed replacement for the standard assault rifle, which fired that. It offered some improvements, but not enough to be considered a replacement.


Edited by Cymbel, 13 January 2014 - 05:37 PM.

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#38 Askil

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 02:22 AM

Actually fgdsfg monomoleular blade technology in the 40k verse is acheived almost excusively by use of monofilament edging due to the trmendous diffculty of making metals that thin without compromising their strength or becoming brittle.

 

The Eldar are actually just the only race with the time or inclination to use monofilaments for anything else.



#39 Fgdsfg

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 07:44 AM

Actually fgdsfg monomoleular blade technology in the 40k verse is acheived almost excusively by use of monofilament edging due to the trmendous diffculty of making metals that thin without compromising their strength or becoming brittle.

 

The Eldar are actually just the only race with the time or inclination to use monofilaments for anything else.

 

http://wh40k.lexican...lament_Weaponry


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These things are dumb and do not exist. This is non-negotiable and undebatable.


#40 Boss Gitsmasha

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 10:04 PM

Except for the Blood Angels' Sanguinary Guard, who use Bloodshard bolts in their wrist-mounted boltguns, which add a razor-filament payload that's designed to shred armor.

 

I imagine Fgdsfg will be eager to remind us of his seething contempt for Matt Ward by this point.


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"Oomans are pink an' soft, not tough an' green like da Boyz. Dey'z all da same size too, so dey'z always arguin' about who's in charge, 'cos dere's no way o' tellin' c'ept fer badges an' ooniforms an' fings. When one o' dem wants ta lord it over da uvvers, 'e says 'I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me', or 'I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good'. Da funny fing is, 'arf of 'em believe it an' da uvver 'arf don't, so 'e has ta hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. Wot a lot o' mukkin' about if yer asks me. An' while dey'z all arguin' wiv each uvver over who's da boss, da Orks can clobber da lot."





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