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Second Edition Beta- playing a sniper STILL not possible.


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#21 Kshatriya

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 06:47 PM

19 damage as a minimum is HUGE though, the average damage on an Exitus is still doing to be 22, but with a maximum that puts it somewhere in anti-tank territory. Even at your proposed 1d10+17 its still ranking close to a meltagun.
 

The TT implies that's the point. Vindicare can pop Land Raiders in the wargame. In the RPG, they very seriously will not. Tanks in FFG40k have huge AP. ANd don't get me started at how bad meltas are in the RPG of doing their actual anti-material job.



#22 Cail

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Posted 06 January 2014 - 12:48 AM

That's not how odds work... The chances of rolling 4 of the same number are 1:10,000, the chances of rolling 4 numbers with a SUM of 20 is significantly higher.
 

 

 

19 damage as a minimum is HUGE though, the average damage on an Exitus is still doing to be 22, but with a maximum that puts it somewhere in anti-tank territory. Even at your proposed 1d10+17 its still ranking close to a meltagun.
 

The TT implies that's the point. Vindicare can pop Land Raiders in the wargame. In the RPG, they very seriously will not. Tanks in FFG40k have huge AP. ANd don't get me started at how bad meltas are in the RPG of doing their actual anti-material job.

 

 

I'm not disputing that, I'm saying that its hard to argue that the Exitus is overpowered with its stat line. Be honest, do you really want the game littered with loads of insta-kill weapons, because they get used by NPCs just as often.


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#23 Arrakiz

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Posted 06 January 2014 - 05:01 AM

That's not how odds work... The chances of rolling 4 of the same number are 1:10,000, the chances of rolling 4 numbers with a SUM of 20 is significantly higher.
 

 

 

19 damage as a minimum is HUGE though, the average damage on an Exitus is still doing to be 22, but with a maximum that puts it somewhere in anti-tank territory. Even at your proposed 1d10+17 its still ranking close to a meltagun.
 

The TT implies that's the point. Vindicare can pop Land Raiders in the wargame. In the RPG, they very seriously will not. Tanks in FFG40k have huge AP. ANd don't get me started at how bad meltas are in the RPG of doing their actual anti-material job.

 

 

I'm not disputing that, I'm saying that its hard to argue that the Exitus is overpowered with its stat line. Be honest, do you really want the game littered with loads of insta-kill weapons, because they get used by NPCs just as often.

If they aren't supposed to be insta-kill weapons, don't pretend like they are in the narrative.

 

That's the gist of it. It's not that Exitus is underpowered, it's that it's statline and rules do not reflect it's writeup. And that's bad.

 

Change one or the other. Either make Exitus' stats reflect it's narrative, or adjust the writeup so it's reflected by the current stats, but as it is, it's dishonest and confusing.


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#24 Tenebrae

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Posted 06 January 2014 - 07:51 AM

 

That's the gist of it. It's not that Exitus is underpowered, it's that it's statline and rules do not reflect it's writeup. And that's bad.

 

Change one or the other. Either make Exitus' stats reflect it's narrative, or adjust the writeup so it's reflected by the current stats, but as it is, it's dishonest and confusing.

 

If they aren't supposed to be insta-kill weapons, don't pretend like they are in the narrative.

Please promise me never ever to open a L5R RPG 3rd edition book.

The discrepancies between narrative and rules in those books are ... significant.



#25 Arrakiz

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Posted 06 January 2014 - 08:23 AM

 

 

That's the gist of it. It's not that Exitus is underpowered, it's that it's statline and rules do not reflect it's writeup. And that's bad.

 

Change one or the other. Either make Exitus' stats reflect it's narrative, or adjust the writeup so it's reflected by the current stats, but as it is, it's dishonest and confusing.

 

If they aren't supposed to be insta-kill weapons, don't pretend like they are in the narrative.

Please promise me never ever to open a L5R RPG 3rd edition book.

The discrepancies between narrative and rules in those books are ... significant.

 

Oh I am well aware of the problems of 3rd edition. Thankfully, those no longer hold any significance, since 4th edition came out. In any case, the discrepancies between the narrative and rules in L5R has nothing to do with discrepancies between the narrative and rules in Dark Heresy.



#26 Tenebrae

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Posted 06 January 2014 - 10:18 AM

I never claimed otherwise, just warned you that there are worse examples.

I was just trying to save you from a heart attack :)



#27 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 08:16 AM

What's the problem with 6 minimum damage?

 

Snipers are not superhuman godlike entities. They can graze.

 

"Realistically," 6 is too much.

 

Anyway Accurate is the most overpowered weapon quality in the game as far as I can see.



#28 segara82

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 08:29 AM

It is not really overpowered. Powerful? Yes, if you roll good. But without it sniper rifles would not work as intended. Versatile Shooter from OW that puts the extra damage dice to about any SP weapon you use ... that is something I consider overpowered.

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#29 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 09:52 AM

OK, "powerful." :) The point is that it's a nasty quality.

 

I thought Versatile Shooter only worked on non-Basic weapons with the Accurate Quality? Of which I think there are only two (needle pistol, vindicator cannon).



#30 segara82

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 09:54 AM

I'm currently at work and AFB, i'll check again this evening.

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#31 Kshatriya

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 10:45 AM

Anyway Accurate is the most overpowered weapon quality in the game as far as I can see.

Gotta disagree there. In my experience, the worst offender is Storm.



#32 Arrakiz

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 12:52 PM

What's the problem with 6 minimum damage?

 

Snipers are not superhuman godlike entities. They can graze.

 

"Realistically," 6 is too much.

 

Anyway Accurate is the most overpowered weapon quality in the game as far as I can see.

They can graze, sure. But not when the hit is nearly perfect. The way damage works in this game is pretty ludicrous as it is, since it almost doesn't matter at all how accurate the shot really is. A perfect shot between the eyes should not deal 6 damage.

 

That's why in my opinion high caliber sniper rifle such as Exitus should have a really high minimum damage, because of the very fact that it has a very low rate of fire, low clip and is really, really awkward to use.

 

And that's besides the point entirely, because the point, again, is not whether it's overpowered or not, it's whether how it works actually fits the description. And by no stretch of imagination it does, in it's current state.

 

If you think that such a huge sway in damage of the weapon and it's complete lack of connection to actual accuracy of the shot is reasonable, sure, ok, I am ready to accept it. Hell, I can see it as a merit, but then present them as such in the narrative. Tell the players and GMs that they're really buying into a weapon that's terribly uncertain. Don't try to sell them that this is somehow a very powerful weapon that can take down huge targets easily and that it utilizes shooters skill to the maximum making it an ideal tool for a devote marksman, because it clearly isn't.

 

As it is, someone with high ballistic skills is better off with an autogun. Because autogun can score up to 10 hits with a good roll. That's 10d10+20. Even at 5 hits, a really mediocre result for someone with the skills of a Vindicare Assasin, it's still 5d10+10. And as an added benefit you can split that between targets. It's really awkard when an AK47 seems to benefit more from an accuracy of the sniper then the god-damned sniper rifle.


Edited by Arrakiz, 07 January 2014 - 12:58 PM.

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#33 Lynata

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 01:06 PM

Technically, you only have a "perfect shot between the eyes" if you actually do roll the highest number on your damage dice. Imo, it's always been a bit problematic how the BS test only governs whether you hit at all, or don't, whilst how well you hit is determined by a separate damage roll. But the rules are what they are.

 

Also, much of the damage from multiple autogun hits can be negated multiple times by AP and TB. A single high-damage sniper round will have its damage reduced once, with the rest of the damage being applied without being lowered further. As such, against enemies with high armour and Toughness, I'd prefer a single shot weapon with high damage, whereas autofire is more useful against lesser enemies.

 

Not that I wouldn't agree on the rifle still deserving a somewhat higher minimum damage, mind you. It'd just ... feel better that way, and I agree it would lend more strength to the role of a sniper. Not to mention the description issue, although this could be said for a whole lot of weapons in this system.


Edited by Lynata, 07 January 2014 - 01:08 PM.

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#34 Kshatriya

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 01:14 PM

This is something that I think contributed to the Deathwatch errata. More dice skews the probability curve and greatly ups the chance of RF, which was the big issue with DW's heavy bolter one-shotting Hive Tyrants. The errata increased the static damage bonuses, reduced the weapon from 2d10 to 1d10 and lowered the RoF to compensate average damage across 6 max hits vs 10. 


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#35 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 01:42 PM

A hit that does 6 damage is not a perfect shot right between the eyes by definition. If you rolled that, that means you grazed. The effectiveness of a hit is a combination of to-hit roll and damage roll, not just to-hit roll.

 

If you raise minimum damage, you are in effect saying that there is no such thing as slight grazing. Slight grazing is literally impossible for the sniper. Not only will he reliably one-hit-kill or seriously wound things, he will ALWAYS do it.


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 07 January 2014 - 01:43 PM.

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#36 Arrakiz

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 01:42 PM

Mind you guys, for a long long time before any supplements or even errata, the only weapons that could have been called (because sure as hell not considered) "sniper" rifles were the hunting rifle and the long-las. And they had 150m of effective range, so up to 600m at extreme range. Considering our modern sniper rifles can easily stay accurate at 4000m... Those are rather poor excuses for "sniper" weapons.

 

For a long time, it seemed to me like that was the whole point- that for some reason, in the Grim Darkness of Far Future sniper rifles don't exist and everybody just runs at people with swords. And in a way, it was cool. It seemed totally unrealistic, but I didn't care, there was a certain charm to it.

 

And then all the errata and expansions started coming out, begining with Inquisitor's Handbook and the Nomad rifle, I think. And I had no idea what to make of any of it since then. It seemed like at some point, the game just decided that it will start supporting the idea of playing long-range marksman. But it never really supported it mechanically. It merely started writting narrative that seemingly tried to fool people into thinking that, yes, you can play a sniper in Dark Heresy.

 

You never really could. That was never the point. I can only atribute that insulting sugar-coating to fan preassure really. And I can't hold that against the Devs. But I would rather not have a chance to play a sniper, then be lied to by the narrative that I can, because those rules clearly can't handle it.



#37 Arrakiz

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 01:46 PM

A hit that does 6 damage is not a perfect shot right between the eyes by definition. If you rolled that, that means you grazed. The effectiveness of a hit is a combination of to-hit roll and damage roll, not just to-hit roll.

 

If you raise minimum damage, you are in effect saying that there is no such thing as slight grazing. Slight grazing is literally impossible for the sniper. Not only will he reliably one-hit-kill or seriously wound things, he will ALWAYS do it.

Well... Yes. Sorry, but that's the point of being a sniper. If you hit, most things die. Up that to 11 with Vindicare.

 

That's why I am not saying it should be possible. I think it shouldn't. All I'm saying is that the game shouldn't lie about it. If playing an actual sniper is something not supported by the game, then don't try to persuade people that they can do it, with only some clever wordplay and no mechanics to back it up.


Edited by Arrakiz, 07 January 2014 - 01:47 PM.


#38 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 01:47 PM

Well you can't play a sniper that shoots at 4000 meters, but you can certainly have a guy that shoots at long range relative to everything else and does massive amounts of damage with each hit.

 

What's the issue?



#39 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 01:48 PM

 

A hit that does 6 damage is not a perfect shot right between the eyes by definition. If you rolled that, that means you grazed. The effectiveness of a hit is a combination of to-hit roll and damage roll, not just to-hit roll.

 

If you raise minimum damage, you are in effect saying that there is no such thing as slight grazing. Slight grazing is literally impossible for the sniper. Not only will he reliably one-hit-kill or seriously wound things, he will ALWAYS do it.

Well... Yes. Sorry, but that's the point of being a sniper. If you hit, most things die. Up that to 11 with Vindicare.

 

That's why I am not saying it should be possible. I think it shouldn't. All I'm saying is that the game shouldn't lie about it. If playing an actual sniper is something not supported by the game, then don't try to persuade people that they can do it, with only some clever wordplay and no mechanics to back it up.

 

 

I don't get it. You're saying that snipers always kill their targets when they hit them? They don't.



#40 Arrakiz

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 01:51 PM

 

 

A hit that does 6 damage is not a perfect shot right between the eyes by definition. If you rolled that, that means you grazed. The effectiveness of a hit is a combination of to-hit roll and damage roll, not just to-hit roll.

 

If you raise minimum damage, you are in effect saying that there is no such thing as slight grazing. Slight grazing is literally impossible for the sniper. Not only will he reliably one-hit-kill or seriously wound things, he will ALWAYS do it.

Well... Yes. Sorry, but that's the point of being a sniper. If you hit, most things die. Up that to 11 with Vindicare.

 

That's why I am not saying it should be possible. I think it shouldn't. All I'm saying is that the game shouldn't lie about it. If playing an actual sniper is something not supported by the game, then don't try to persuade people that they can do it, with only some clever wordplay and no mechanics to back it up.

 

 

I don't get it. You're saying that snipers always kill their targets when they hit them? They don't.

 

I'm saying that grazing people with a freaking Exitus rifle is utterly absurd, considering that by it's writeup, it should reliably destroy Land Speeders at the very least. If you want to have it random, have it random, but then don't pretend that it isn't, simple as that.


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