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Second Edition Beta- playing a sniper STILL not possible.


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#1 Arrakiz

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 01:39 AM

So I looked through the beta rules. There were a couple of things I liked and a couple of things I didn't like.

 

I can see that they tried to streamline the base system and make it much easier. Except they didn't. It got a very kind of White Wolf treatment, in that it tries to present itself as an easy, managable and intuitive system, while it really, really isn't.

 

I didn't really like what they did whith psykers. On the one hand, it's unwise to start the game out as a psyker, because that essentialy just gives you a pack worth 300 xp, which you could supposedly buy with any other role and the GM is even encouraged to let you do it. On the other hand- not being a psyker is just dumb.

 

They turned cybernetics into straight up upgrades to your body, which seems very much out of theme for a Warhammer game. Not that I don't like a touch of transhumanist dream in my games, but this emphasis on playing cyber-psyker-assasins is a little silly.

 

But worst of all, it seems that playing a sniper is still unvayable. I mean, you can grab a sniper rifle and shoot, but the way the injury system is made it's nearly impossible to die in one hit and when it happens, it doesn't happen due to big damage you can deal, but blind luck, because of the way the crit table is done. With sniper rifle's RoF if 1/3, trying to kill someone this way is just a waste.

 

Don't get me wrong, I can welcome the idea of less random and less lethal Dark Heresy, but I wish they were honest about what is and what isn't possible in this system. If playing a sniper is not a good idea, they should call it out loud in the text, because someone might see the rules and think "hey, I can do it!" and they will be very disappointed indeed.

 

Also, can someone explain to me how does the Mono upgrade work? It says it gives the weapon a quality of Sapping (X) but it never states what X is.



#2 Tenebrae

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 03:18 AM

Shouldn't this be in the Second Edition Beta Forum - a forum dedicated to ... well, more or less this?

 

Link: http://community.fan...d-edition-beta/


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#3 Felenis

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 01:22 PM

I don't think you have the right Beta rules...

Current beta is very OW/BC esque.
Action points and the like are looooong gone. Like months and months ago.

#4 Kshatriya

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 02:40 PM

What do you mean "still not possible?" It's very possible in "original" DH, I have no idea about the 2e Beta.



#5 Arrakiz

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 03:41 PM

What do you mean "still not possible?" It's very possible in "original" DH, I have no idea about the 2e Beta.

Eh... I guess after the errata made accurate quality something useful. But even then, weapons don't really do enough minimum damage to really kill something more meaty then a normal, unarmoured human with one shot.



#6 Kshatriya

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 05:32 PM

I disagree, mostly with what I've seen the party Assassin do with a long las. We haven't been going up against anything slouchy. 



#7 Felenis

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 05:37 PM

3D10+4 Pen 3 is more then enough to one shot most regular enemies. Combine that with special ammo, the assassin special ability, death dealer, mighty shot

3D10+12 Pen 4 at minimum.

C'mon! What more can you ask for? That's enough to give a Space Marine a seriously bad day
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#8 Kshatriya

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 05:44 PM

3D10+4 Pen 3 is more then enough to one shot most regular enemies. Combine that with special ammo, the assassin special ability, death dealer, mighty shot
 

Is some of this from DH 2nd ed? 



#9 Felenis

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 05:50 PM

All of it is. That's what his topics about. Wrong forum though

#10 Arrakiz

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 05:53 PM

Which I'm sorry about. New here. Real sorry.



#11 Tenebrae

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 04:02 AM

Which I'm sorry about. New here. Real sorry.

Not to worry too much.



#12 Kshatriya

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 03:25 PM

Mighty Shot and special ammo are present in DH original, just wasn't sure about special abilities etc and for a moment I was thinking it was an Ascension thing.



#13 Arrakiz

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 03:34 PM

Mighty Shot and special ammo are present in DH original, just wasn't sure about special abilities etc and for a moment I was thinking it was an Ascension thing.

To my knowledge, Ascension doesn't make snipers vayable either. Vindicare has great deffensive ability, but not offensive one.



#14 Kshatriya

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 05:49 PM

Well, Ascension doesn't necessarily make them any more viable offense-wise than they already are. Vindicare are already supremely viable even without 85 dodges per round.



#15 Arrakiz

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 06:40 PM

Hmmm... I suppose "viable" is not a correct word, no. It's true that they're very effective, probably as effective as anything else.

 

But there is this disconnection from the fluff, I think. The Setting presents Vindicare assasins as capable of taking the biggest xenos such as ork warbosses or chaos space marines sorcerors with a single shot.

 

But it never really was possible, within the system, without extraordinary luck. Vindicare assasin is only slightly more probable to get this lucky then anyone else. But come to think it it, it's completely necessary. If it was possible to build your character to acomplish that, anybody who didn't do so would have been foolish. For the sake of balance it's mandatory for it to NOT BE POSSIBLE.

 

And yet, the game is not really honest about it. It presents it as something possible, nay, worth pursueing. I suppose I am a bit sensitive about games making narrative claims that are not expressed mechanically, after playing way too much Vampire. I wish they stated out-right that this is just something that's not happening. Let's be honesst here- warhammer line in general has a tendency of overexagerating the writeup narratively and failing to express it mechanically.


Edited by Arrakiz, 05 January 2014 - 02:31 PM.


#16 Cail

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 11:34 AM

The more I see people ***** about the strength of the sniper rifle, the more I question how powerful the damn thing will need to be before any of you are satisfied. I've seen sniper rifles level creatures designed to be used against space marines in DW. Seriously, if you need more power invest in 'Weapon training: Heavy' and get a man portable lascannon.

The vincare uses a special type of rifle called an Exitus Rifle. Its far, far more powerful than the regular sniper rifle.

 

If the Exitus Rifle uses a turbo penetrator round, Its at 4D10+2 Pen 14. Thats before including mighty shot and the one that lets you add damage on criticals, or any bonus damage from accurate. How is this underpowered?


Edited by Cail, 05 January 2014 - 11:43 AM.

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#17 Arrakiz

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 12:48 PM

The more I see people ***** about the strength of the sniper rifle, the more I question how powerful the damn thing will need to be before any of you are satisfied. I've seen sniper rifles level creatures designed to be used against space marines in DW. Seriously, if you need more power invest in 'Weapon training: Heavy' and get a man portable lascannon.

The vincare uses a special type of rifle called an Exitus Rifle. Its far, far more powerful than the regular sniper rifle.

 

If the Exitus Rifle uses a turbo penetrator round, Its at 4D10+2 Pen 14. Thats before including mighty shot and the one that lets you add damage on criticals, or any bonus damage from accurate. How is this underpowered?

It's undeprowered when you realize 4d10+2 can result in anything between 6 and 42. If you can show me a Xeno overlord who can die from 6 points of damage, then sure, it's really powerful...

 

4d10+2 sounds really scary, but in reality, it's terribly uncertain. It would have been much more reasonable if it was 3d10+7. But in reality, it should be something like 1d10+17. Because yeah, 19 damage is something that I can get behind as a reasonable minimum. And 22 is definitely a reasonable medium target number.

 

but 6 as a minimum? Not even close.

 

But again, killing anything with one shot should never be possible, without extraordinary luck. No, scratch that, killing anything more substentional then normal unarmoured human with a single shot shouldn't ever be possible at all, luck or not.

 

But I wish the game was honest about it, that's all.


Edited by Arrakiz, 05 January 2014 - 12:51 PM.


#18 Kshatriya

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 02:13 PM

 

But again, killing anything with one shot should never be possible, without extraordinary luck. No, scratch that, killing anything more substentional then normal unarmoured human with a single shot shouldn't ever be possible at all, luck or not.

 

 

I disagree with this notion. But I can see how the probability spread across 4d10 makes the Exitus not live up to its narrative hype, versus having 1d10 plus a large static modifier. 


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#19 Cail

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 02:57 PM

19 damage as a minimum is HUGE though, the average damage on an Exitus is still doing to be 22, but with a maximum that puts it somewhere in anti-tank territory. Even at your proposed 1d10+17 its still ranking close to a meltagun.

Also, you realise the chances of you rolling 4 1's on 4d10 are astronomical, right?

If you add in the skills that any self respecting Vindicare will have at that level, its actually an average of 26. Using the accurate quality would push the average into 36.

I just don't get how game-breakingly powerful a gun has to be before people think its enough.


Edited by Cail, 05 January 2014 - 03:01 PM.

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#20 Arrakiz

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 03:31 PM

19 damage as a minimum is HUGE though, the average damage on an Exitus is still doing to be 22, but with a maximum that puts it somewhere in anti-tank territory. Even at your proposed 1d10+17 its still ranking close to a meltagun.

Also, you realise the chances of you rolling 4 1's on 4d10 are astronomical, right?

If you add in the skills that any self respecting Vindicare will have at that level, its actually an average of 26. Using the accurate quality would push the average into 36.

I just don't get how game-breakingly powerful a gun has to be before people think its enough.

Don't tell me the odds damn it!

 

Seriously though, if avarage damage is the same, then no harm done in making minimum damage higher right? And look, by removing the dice, you're lowering the possibility of rightheous fury, aren't you? Also, rolling 4 ones is just as likely as rolling 4 fives, actually. The "avarage roll" is always a simplification, since the only thing you can really be certain of, is that 4d10 will produce something between 4 and 40. That doesn't mean it will produce 20 more often then 10 really.

 

But that's mostly irrelevant. It's just that, by the text fluff, Vindicare are supposed to consistently be able to take out really big targets. With such huge randomness factor of their weapon, it just isn't possible.

 

But again, I don't really think it should be possible. But I think that the text should clearly specify that Exitus is a very random weapon which, on occasion, can produce spectacular result, but is very much prototypical and that Vinidcare assasins can sometimes take out very tough oponents in a single shot, but more often then not it's only their nearly superhuman skill that leverages the randomness of their chosen tool and allows it to be trully effective.


Edited by Arrakiz, 05 January 2014 - 04:29 PM.





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