Jump to content



Photo

Hate the game? Suck it up, buttercup.


  • Please log in to reply
73 replies to this topic

#1 Saint7

Saint7

    Member

  • Members
  • 42 posts

Posted 30 December 2013 - 12:39 AM

Hi all,

 

This post is something I've been wanting to write for a while now. I couldn't before because I wanted to have my own copy of Eldritch Horror and really analyze it deeply before I make my arguments.

 

I hope this post is especially helpful for those who are interested in the game but are on the fence about purchasing it because of "what their friends said" or "what the internetz say."

 

Long story short? I've come to the conclusion that this is a fun, accessible game that's friendly to newcomers. You'll have a memorable night of gaming with stories to look back upon..........really, what more could you ask for?

 

You know, I've been reading thoughts on EH from many differents forums (including this one and BoardGameGeek). Some of the negative reviews I've read generally seem to fall into the following line of thinking: this game "sucks" because it's a watered-down, dumber version of AH - you "don't really have any control over the game" and EH is akin to "putting your hands on a plastic toy wheel, thinking you are driving the car when in fact you're not."

 

To those people, I say: you are so wrong, you need to go and play some truly BAD games before you open your mouth.

 

1) "Waaaaaaaauuuugh, how am I supposed to know what kind of test I'm gonna get during the Encounter Phase??! It's so random, waaaaaaaugh, no fair!"

 

How many times have you played the game before you came to that conclusion? Once? Twice maybe? Do you even see how the game was designed? For Combat Encounters, you need a character that has high Strength. For acquiring items in the reserve, you need someone who has high Influence. To shut down portals, you better have someone who has either high Lore, Will, or Observation (adequate Strength is not bad too). A lot of major city encounter cards or general encounter cards ask that you have adequate Willpower and Lore (decent Strength and Observation wouldn't hurt either). Expedition cards require high Observation and Strength.

 

I know it doesn't look like it, but there's a method to the madness. You'd know if you played the game more than once.

2) "Waaaaaaaaaaughhh, my character sucks! He/she doesn't have the right Skills necessary to overcome tests, waaaaaaaugh."

Did you look at the game board? Do you see that certain cities have a higher probability of improving the skills you want? This is what the designers had in mind; to have you racing across the globe to improve yourself, tailoring your character as you see fit, to make you sweat between beefing up your character or solving mysteries. Also, the Reserve has PLENTY of Assets that CLEARLY show you what skills will be improved upon its acquisition.

Don't say your character sucks, just admit that you don't like reading or paying attention to details.

 

3) "Waaaaaaaaaaaauuugh, this game is dice heavy - it's so luck based! Waaaaaaaaaaugh, like a stupid slot machine in Las Vegas! I'm a macho hardcore strategist, I don't like luck! Waaaaugh!"

This claim is harder to defend so forgive me for going on a tangent, but if you look at some of the most current games that resonate with the mass market today, this seems to be a trend that isn't going away anytime soon.

 

Let's harken back to what the state of board games was like 15 years ago: board games were fighting a losing battle against videogames, movies, and pop culture in general. Board games designers realized that they had to make games that were easy to grasp and lured you into their web of fun within minutes of playing the game or they would lose the attention of your average Joe. If we look at the world of casual games, you see people glued to their phones playing 'Candy Crush Saga' or addicted to 'Zynga Slots' and 'Texas Hold'em' on their computers at work. We need to accept the fact that, on average, most people LIKE elements of chance or probability. We like rolling the dice and not knowing what's going to come up. We like defying the odds when we get the numbers we want. In short, people don't mind if their games include an element of surprise.

Some of the most successful (or more successful) board games I've played rely on a seemingly heavy dose of the luck of the draw......... Augustus (drawing the right tile for you), Dominion (drawing the right card for you), Jaipur (drawing the right resource on your turn so your opponent doesn't get it), Elder Sign (rolling the dice so that the right symbols match your task)........the list goes on and on.

 

What matters isn't so much that your game is more luck-based, what matters is: Does the game let you react and DO something about the luck of the draw (be it bad or good)? Can you use your brains and/or skill to get out of a bad situation or form some sort of plan to victory? The answer with Eldritch Horror is a resounding 'yes.' If you are smart, resourceful and can work harmoniously with your team, you CAN overcome the obstacles that the game throws at you, regardless of how well or poorly you roll. Setbacks in EH are hurtful, yes, but temporary - in stark contrast, careful planning and a keen sense of playing the odds will produce desirable results, everytime. There are meaningful decisions in this game, it's just not so laid bare and exposed like a game of chess or something...............

 

4) "Waaaaaaauuugh, this game is Arkham Horror lite for newbies so it sucks! I like the way things were back in 2005 when I was the first person to discover this game! Waaaaaugh."

 

Well, I guess you're not the target audience for EH, are ya? Stick to Arkham Horror then if that so pleases you. For everyone else, time marches on.


Edited by Saint7, 30 December 2013 - 12:53 AM.

  • Jayven and Vala_Melkor like this

~*~
Le monde tourne sur mes roues, je pédale sous les chaudrons
Je file sous les constellations sans faire trop attention
Et si ça se trouve, je ne rêve à rien...


#2 Glaurung

Glaurung

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,184 posts

Posted 30 December 2013 - 03:37 AM

Well, I guess you're not the target audience for EH, are ya? Stick to Arkham Horror then if that so pleases you. For everyone else, time marches on.

 

this is the best argument about AH. Time is go on and AH will only fade and fade more. And EH will start shine more and more with expansions. Long live AH!! IS a good game but time move for now. EH also will come to the same end and we will get a new more improve game third generation and so on. 


  • Saint7 likes this

Wizard is never late.......

 

Glaurung playtrough LOTR LCG on youtube :

http://www.youtube.com/user/olegyd   


#3 GrooveChamp

GrooveChamp

    Member

  • Members
  • 235 posts

Posted 30 December 2013 - 03:43 AM

I like Eldritch Horror better because it's a lot more about long term resource planning (the resources being your actions in terms of items you need, movement, and pushing low health before sacrificing actions to rest) whereas Arkham was more about luck of not drawing a card that totally screws you over. There are very, very few cards in Eldritch that approach the "screw you" level of a gate burst or "a gate and a monster appear!". You know you might lose 1 or 2 health in an encounter, you know what you stand to lose in one round of fighting a monster. It's all about pushing your luck trying to complete things as fast possible versus playing it safe to rest and get more items.

 

I don't understand where anyone is getting that Arkham had more freedom. By comparison, Arkham had you spend half the time stuck in the otherworld, stuck in the hospital/asylum, or stuck in a spot by monsters you couldn't defeat. If you weren't stuck, you camped the science center for clues or the item shop.

 

There's so much more to do in Eldritch that we've never had anyone say, "I can't do anything." during a turn. In Arkham it's rare to hear that phrase any less than half a dozen times.


  • Saint7 likes this

#4 Wolfgar

Wolfgar

    Member

  • Members
  • 334 posts

Posted 30 December 2013 - 06:43 AM

Eldritch features a few things that may be good or bad depending on your take on the matter.

 

 

 

There's so much more to do in Eldritch that we've never had anyone say, "I can't do anything." during a turn. In Arkham it's rare to hear that phrase any less than half a dozen times.

Personally I have found myself saying, "Well, I can't do anything" many times in Eldritch Horror. Can't rest, there's a monster. Can't travel, I need to be here. Can't trade, no one to trade with. Can't buy, already got a travel ticket...out of options. Plus a fair number of encounters are just "Spend a Clue..." which I likely don't have, because as i was "supposed to" I hit the cities for skill boosts first, so I just waste my turn when those come up. Yeah, it would be better if I could just make sure everyone always had at least one clue on them for when these things happen, but with the mechanics of clues that's just not feasible. The only nice thing is that I at least get one die to roll for Encounters now, so I don't have Arkham auto-fail.

 

Also, the Mythos cards and rumors int his game are nasty, because several just wind up killing you/making you lose. I've had several investigators die because a Mythos card just announced they take X damage, TS, no roll, no nothing. Secrets of the Past requires you spend enough Clue tokens to solve a mystery, and make a roll for the privilege of doing so AND requires you hit a moving target as the Expedition token goes flying around the board, and can cost you the game in six turns, and it's considered an easy rumor. This isn't even talking about shuffling mysteries back into the deck, which is either meaningless of game breaking depending on when it happens.



#5 GrooveChamp

GrooveChamp

    Member

  • Members
  • 235 posts

Posted 30 December 2013 - 06:26 PM

Shuffling mysteries back in can be annoying, but how are they different from Arkham gate bursts?

 

And it sounds like you're saying there's nothing to do as a 2nd action when you're at full health, don't need items, and already have 2 tickets. Okay, that's a rare instance but there's always something you can do. It certainly doesn't compare to spending half of Arkham stuck in the asylum or at a location because a gug decided to block you.


Edited by GrooveChamp, 30 December 2013 - 11:03 PM.


#6 The Professor

The Professor

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,357 posts

Posted 31 December 2013 - 06:40 AM

Saint7,

 

     At the risk of overstating the obvious, while I certainly appreciate the forum as a venue to offer ideas and thoughts on the games, I ask you to please refrain from several of your inflammatory comments.  I know a number of EH players who have long posted on this site and I greatly respect their opinion...moreover, even if we were to disagree on various aspects of the game or even an interpretation to a specific rule, we did so with mutual respect.  I've noticed over the past few months, an influx of new Arkhamites to the forum and a diminished degree of civility on these pages.  Please continue to contribute, but as a "regular" on these pages, I ask you to craft your missives with a bit more tact and diplomacy.

 

Cheers,

Joe/The Professor 


  • Julia and xodarap like this

The Professor

http://crafthulhu.squarespace.com

 

 


#7 Jake yet again

Jake yet again

    Member

  • Members
  • 658 posts

Posted 31 December 2013 - 06:46 AM

I agree with the comment of "nothing to do" as it's happened at least once in all the game I've played. Typically this occurs when an investigator on full health /  sanity goes to a wilderness or sea location and blows the roll to gain the clue token. They still want the clue, so they stay there. Because they're all full health, there's no point resting. They're not in a city so they can't shop or gain travel tickets, and their Investigator local action ability doesn't help in any way.

 

Our solution was to add a "Investigate" action which took two actions and gave the investigator a +1 bonus on all skill checks they make that turn. Hardly game-breaking but it does actually feel like the investigator is doing something that turn.


Edited by Jake yet again, 31 December 2013 - 06:49 AM.

  • Saint7 likes this

Lovecraft Country Horror - A completely FREE Big Box expansion for Arkham Horror, exploring the minor locations of the Cthulhu Mythos. Contains: Lovecraft Country Board, 16 Investigators, 4 Ancient Ones, 16 Skills, 32 Common Items, 24 Unique Items, 10 Spells, 16 Music of Erich Zann cards, 76 Leads, 4 Allies, 32 Monsters, 24 Injuries and Madnesses, 54 Mythos Cards, 41 Outer World Encounters, 52 Location Encounters for each Neighbourhood.


#8 Jake yet again

Jake yet again

    Member

  • Members
  • 658 posts

Posted 31 December 2013 - 06:48 AM

Accidentally double-posted. Ignore.


Edited by Jake yet again, 31 December 2013 - 06:49 AM.

Lovecraft Country Horror - A completely FREE Big Box expansion for Arkham Horror, exploring the minor locations of the Cthulhu Mythos. Contains: Lovecraft Country Board, 16 Investigators, 4 Ancient Ones, 16 Skills, 32 Common Items, 24 Unique Items, 10 Spells, 16 Music of Erich Zann cards, 76 Leads, 4 Allies, 32 Monsters, 24 Injuries and Madnesses, 54 Mythos Cards, 41 Outer World Encounters, 52 Location Encounters for each Neighbourhood.


#9 Julia

Julia

    I survived Avi's apocalypse

  • Members
  • 6,487 posts

Posted 31 December 2013 - 07:25 AM

Shuffling mysteries back in can be annoying, but how are they different from Arkham gate bursts?

 

GrroveChamp, thanks for the interesting point. Allow me to answer on this. Gate bursts in Arkham are annoying, but they are different for different reasons:

a) you can quite easily recover the required resources to set the seal back in the original place while solving an additional mystery in Eldritch could imply some more work to do; I'd be ok with this, but time is a limited resource in Eldritch in a way more costraining than Arkham: while yo have both in Arkham and Eldritch ways to control the doom track, you can't control at all the size of Eldritch Mythos deck, so that losing the game for depleting the Mythos deck is actually a major issue.

b) there are ways to control gate bursts in Arkham: you know the frequency of gates appearing at a certain location and the composition of the Mythos deck, so that sealing Independence Square on turn 3 could mean a gate burst before the game ends. So that choosing what to seal and when is part of the strategy for winning the game, while this is not happening in Eldritch.

 

Nonetheless, the Mythos reshuffling encounter grants you a chance to avoid this incredible penalty. There are other problems coming with Eldtrich I'm not comfortable with because you don't have control over them. Too heavy penalties when certain conditions are triggered, for example, and you don't have control over that. For example, monsters being healed by Mythos cards. If you have some Epic monsters in play, and you're working on them pretty hard for some rounds and then the Mythos healing them all arrives, you won't be happy. Penalty for failing the Wind-Walker rumor means 6-health damage dealt to everyone, which means this could easily kill everyone in your party. I had 7 tries to solve the Fractured Reality rumor, and failed, and had a +7 doomers in one single Mythos phase to face, and only because OW encounters drawn had checks impossible to pass for the character attempting them, and the only time I passed one, I was rewarded by something that wasn't the gate closure. I could go on with quite a long list of similar examples that actually are relevant in the economy of the game, and this makes me think the game has some problems.

 

I'm not saying (and I never said if you look at my previous posts) that the game is bad. The game has some insights of pure genius (mechanics are elegant and effective without being complex), but there are elements that can be off-putting for players who go for highly stategical games. I'm perfectly fine with those who enjoy the experience (good for them! the more people playing and being happy with games, the better for the community, the houses licensing games, and so on), as I can see why a certain part of the audience is not happy with the game.

 

I do think that every reviewer's duty is to spot out not only the pros, but also the cons every game has, so that people who're still trying to understand what the game experience is like could have better clues. And there is nothing wrong with this.

 

To the original poster, I can simply tell: ok, you like the game. I'm happy for you, and I do hope you'll enjoy it at full. But please avoid comments like "you need to go and play some truly BAD games before you open your mouth". This is arrogant, absolutist and really unpolite. As all your suggestions about "try harder and learn the game better". These are inflamatory comments about people you don't know, and personal attacks that on many other fora won't be allowed. Defend your position through a constructive debate, not with the arrogance granted by a hidden identity on the internet. FFG fora were renowed for the quality level of the posters AND the politeness of the environment, with everyone posting like a gentleman from the past. As The Professor said, civile behaviour is something that never ages, and it's always welcome.


We have dragged Reason from her Throne and set in her place the Empress of Dreams [liber Endvra]
Custom Arkham Horror material / Arkham Horror Advanced Players League

#10 Glaurung

Glaurung

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,184 posts

Posted 31 December 2013 - 12:44 PM

Hey this is just a game for and every one can say what he and in his style. to much diplomacy is also boring. We need some feelings here. Happy new year every one
  • Saint7 likes this

Wizard is never late.......

 

Glaurung playtrough LOTR LCG on youtube :

http://www.youtube.com/user/olegyd   


#11 Julia

Julia

    I survived Avi's apocalypse

  • Members
  • 6,487 posts

Posted 31 December 2013 - 05:25 PM

every one can say what he and in his style

 

Allow me to disagree on this point. I'm quoting from the general rules about forum use every forum on this site once had (and was pinned - I highlighted the interesting part):

 

The Fantasy Flight Games forums have been created as a meeting point for fans of the games we publish, a place where they can exchange ideas and opinions about these games and meet other people that share the same hobby.

To insure that the exchange of messages is fluid and requires the minimum interference by moderators and administrators, we need to all follow certain rules.

We aren't going to compile here an exhausive list of rules because we are counting on the maturity and common sense of all our users; if at any time this presumption is not confirmed by a specific case, we will take the measures each situation requires, whether the rule broken is on this list, or merely common sense.

  1. Write your messages to the appropiate forum, and if you would like to open a new tpoic, please check first to make sure there is not another topic similar to the one you propose.
  2. Don't write messages with a commercial p.
  3. Don't write messages that encourage the illegal use of products protected by copyright.
  4. Treat everyone (users or not) with respect, while enjoying the freedom to disagree with their ideas.

To sum up, if you come here to talk about games with other fans, exchange ideas, and have a good time while bothering as little as possible people who've come here to do the same, you will have no problems and need not concern yourself with this message.

If you think that any user is not respecting these rules, or you have any complaints or doubts about them, write to forum@fantasyflightgames.com.

Important note:
We recommend you read the Forum text editor's users guide.

Thank you.


We have dragged Reason from her Throne and set in her place the Empress of Dreams [liber Endvra]
Custom Arkham Horror material / Arkham Horror Advanced Players League

#12 arkhamresident

arkhamresident

    Member

  • Members
  • 183 posts

Posted 31 December 2013 - 06:45 PM

Why is there this huge rift between people that like EH and people that like AH?  Between here and BGG a good portion of the posts I see are "AH is better than EH for these reasons" or vice versa.  Why do people feel the need to choose one over the other and enforce their opinions?


  • Saint7 likes this
The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the man who can't read them.
 
Mark Twain

 

 

 


#13 Glaurung

Glaurung

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,184 posts

Posted 31 December 2013 - 09:37 PM

Why is there this huge rift between people that like EH and people that like AH?  Between here and BGG a good portion of the posts I see are "AH is better than EH for these reasons" or vice versa.  Why do people feel the need to choose one over the other and enforce their opinions?


For me is quite simple. AH is great game! but as any game AH have a flows. Already have many expansions and actually reach limit. EH is just next step, next evolution.
EH is a part of AH. Next model and of course the next step should be better since designers have a lot of experience to improve the mechanic of the game.
So EH is a next step of AH. Yes we still can play AH but with it will fade in the past. EH will get more abd more expansions and will shine. And one day there will be next evolution of EH as well.
  • Saint7 likes this

Wizard is never late.......

 

Glaurung playtrough LOTR LCG on youtube :

http://www.youtube.com/user/olegyd   


#14 Barl

Barl

    Member

  • Members
  • 45 posts

Posted 01 January 2014 - 10:50 AM

Well, Eldritch Horror and Arkham Horror before it, are what I would call "acquired tastes". If you strip out all the flavor text on the cards you are left with a very flimsy excuse for a game, but that is the point.
If you are not willing (or able) to let yourself be swept up in the emergant storytelling of the game, you are not gonna find much to like about EH and AH. And if you are looking for deep strategic gameplay, Ah and EH is the wrong place to look.

 

But if you can past that and if you like some light roleplay Eldritch Horror is a truly awesome game, and the natrual evolution from Arkham Horror. And once it gets some expansions (and some more godamn encounter cards, 8 is seriously too few), I have no doubt it will surpass Arkham Horror.


  • The Professor and Saint7 like this

#15 suicidepuppet

suicidepuppet

    Member

  • Members
  • 68 posts

Posted 01 January 2014 - 12:04 PM

1) No one has to 'suck up' anything.

 

2) Grow up already.

 

3) There is a huge rift between the groups because FFG broke the cardinal rule - never create a product that competes with a product you already sell. They have released other Lovecraft games in the past and there has been a great deal of cross-over between the groups. But this situation, whether intentional or not, is the same mistake that Wizards of the Coast made when they decided to not only create a new game with the same title but to tell those fans they were better than what had come before. The edition wars started and D&D has now shrunk from the market giant to an also ran and Pathfinder has taken over the market because they don't divide their fans but bring them together.

 

4) EH is not new, evolutionary or any thing other than cannibalized parts from a game that has a history that stretches back longer than most people reading this have been alive. This myth of something having 'too many expansions' is just that...a myth...if FFG released an expansion every month the fans would buy it every month. It is as simple as that.

 

5) Eldritch will never equal or surpass Arkham. Nothing ever has and certainly this little Euro Horror doesn't stand a chance. Arkham is the #1 selling product and product line (that means the expansions for those who don't speak 'sales' ) in Fantasy Flight Games history. Period. NO GAME has ever surpassed it. That information comes directly from the company.

 

6) And finally, being a jack ass and posting topics like this will cause your new shiny shiny to fail even sooner. You are driving people away who might have played the game. Nobody wants to associate with players that act like little babies. Congratulations, you are your own worst enemy.

 

Now go play your game.


  • The Professor likes this

#16 Deathseed

Deathseed

    Member

  • Members
  • 110 posts

Posted 01 January 2014 - 03:25 PM

Why do you build me up (build me up) buttercup, baby
Just to let me down (let me down) and mess me around
And then worst of all (worst of all) you never call, baby
When you say you will (say you will) but I love you still
I need you (I need you) more than anyone, darlin'
You know that I have from the start
So build me up (build me up) buttercup, don't break my heart

 

Wait, what were we talking about?


  • The Professor and Saint7 like this

You think you've got problems. What are you supposed to do if you are a manically depressed robot? No, don't even bother answering. I'm 50,000 times more intelligent than you, and even I don't know the answer.


#17 Saint7

Saint7

    Member

  • Members
  • 42 posts

Posted 01 January 2014 - 04:56 PM

Everyone, these are board games we're talking about. They are meant to be a hobby, not life. Don't take it so seriously. Drink some wine and be merry.

Happy new year!

~*~
Le monde tourne sur mes roues, je pédale sous les chaudrons
Je file sous les constellations sans faire trop attention
Et si ça se trouve, je ne rêve à rien...


#18 Sinthioth

Sinthioth

    Member

  • Members
  • 62 posts

Posted 01 January 2014 - 04:57 PM

Reading these in aggregate is actually a really interesting parsing of the two fan groups. Something to consider: Are Eldritch Horror and Arkham Horror actually competing for the same audience? It seems to me, based mostly on the comments of the fans alone, is that in general Arkham Horror fans are more interested in being presented with challenge, with a problem to be solved. That's what is fun to them. Whereas Eldritch Horror fans are looking more for the kinds of things we traditionally think of as being staples of an american-style boardgame: going on a romp with your buddies and having a grand ol' time. I think that not everyone's aware that the audiences are after different things and this is a source of a lot of the conflict?

 

This being the case, I can understand the frustration with a sizable number of critics of EH mostly deriving their criticisms from comparisons between the games. Such comparison is sort of missing the point, I think. Eldritch Horror is not an improved version of Arkham Horror. It is an Arkham Horror-esq game that is for the people who would really like to play Arkham Horror but don't have 6 hours, an FAQ the size of an eldritch tome, a degree in statistics, and the patience for the Upkeep on top of downkeep, sidwayskeep, and bookeeping on top of bookeeping. Meanwhile, Arkham Horror is for people who are legitimately excited by the challenges presented by that list. They want to wrestle a beast.


  • Saint7 likes this

#19 Sinthioth

Sinthioth

    Member

  • Members
  • 62 posts

Posted 01 January 2014 - 04:59 PM

Also for the record, Elder Sign is objectively better than both of them :P


  • The Professor and Saint7 like this

#20 suicidepuppet

suicidepuppet

    Member

  • Members
  • 68 posts

Posted 01 January 2014 - 06:39 PM

Everyone, these are board games we're talking about. They are meant to be a hobby, not life. Don't take it so seriously. Drink some wine and be merry.

Happy new year!

For some Arkham IS a lifestyle. You obviously have never seen how some fans have converted rooms in their home or even complete homes over to a 20's theme to play the game in. Or the live action version that ran recently at a school. Arkham culture is a community of people who, through the works of Lovecraft or discovering the game through other means, have come together to explore a unique world created by a master of Weird Fiction and wanted to share it with others. The same way that he told other writers to create stories using his ideas players of Arkham now continue that wish through imaginative means using Arkham Horror to create new stories. The stories we tell between sessions is what makes Arkham enduring and why people continue to create new content for the game everyday. In the past two years the amount of material released has topped the expansions released commercially. If FFG had a clue they would partner with the fan creators (like they did recently with a Talisman fan) and start releasing the fan expansions.

 

Eldritch is 'just a game'.

 

Big difference.


  • The Professor likes this




© 2013 Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc. Fantasy Flight Games and the FFG logo are ® of Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc.  All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact | User Support | Rules Questions | Help | RSS