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Runner Deck Building Concern


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#1 flatscan

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 07:21 PM

I'm new to Netrunner (I've only ever played a a dozen or same games with the same two friends) and working on my first custom deck (got a few expansion packs as a gift). So I am curious about people's opinions of a few basic deck building ideas.

 

 

Card Type Proportions

First and foremost, I am curious about how best to balance specific card types in a deck and how important this is in Netrunner. A particular concern I'm having: I know you are only able to have one console out at a time, but how much hardware is useful to have in a deck? 

 

Influence

Next, is the rule of influence. The runner I am thinking of using allows for for first copy of each program to not count against my influence limit (he has an influence of 1) which to me sounds like a great idea, but is it worth the loss of possibly having a multiple copies of a few good cards that cost influence? Really I guess my question is how much a role of cards that cost influence play in deck building.

 

Deck Size

As someone who has played MTG for years, I'm pretty familiar with the issues of wanting a large deck so all the cards you want are in there but keeping the size small enough so that your odds of getting the cards you want is still hight enough, for me it was always 60-85ish. What's a gouda rough deck size boundary for Netrunner?

 

Thanks guys! ^______^


Gracias, 

01


#2 nungunz

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 11:15 PM


 

 

 

Card Type Proportions

First and foremost, I am curious about how best to balance specific card types in a deck and how important this is in Netrunner. A particular concern I'm having: I know you are only able to have one console out at a time, but how much hardware is useful to have in a deck? 

 

 

 

 

 

Depends on the runner, honestly.  Personally I usually only have 3-7 hardware in a deck (3 consoles, 2-3 R&D Interface, possibly 3 copies of clone chip).

 

 


 

Influence

Next, is the rule of influence. The runner I am thinking of using allows for for first copy of each program to not count against my influence limit (he has an influence of 1) which to me sounds like a great idea, but is it worth the loss of possibly having a multiple copies of a few good cards that cost influence? Really I guess my question is how much a role of cards that cost influence play in deck building.

 

 

 

 

 

Honestly I've never seen a good Professor deck make use of more than 15 influence worth of out-of faction programs.  Influence plays a huge role in deck-building.  The more the better (IMO).  Each faction has weakness that influence helps fill.

 


 

Deck Size

As someone who has played MTG for years, I'm pretty familiar with the issues of wanting a large deck so all the cards you want are in there but keeping the size small enough so that your odds of getting the cards you want is still hight enough, for me it was always 60-85ish. What's a gouda rough deck size boundary for Netrunner?

 

 

 

Runners:  Minimum size always.

 

Corp:  Largest deck possible within the base agenda bracket set by the ID (IE, 44, for a 40-card minimum and 49 for a 45-card minimum).



#3 CommissarFeesh

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 04:49 AM

I'll agree that Ngunz' advice is good advice for most decks. However, there will always be exceptions.

Also, the Professor is difficult to build well. As such it might be better to try a different ID for your first custom deck (though if you feel like a challenge, feel free to stick with him ;) )

Proportionally, don't think so much about 'how many hardware cards' as 'how much do I need THIS card'?

If it's crucial to the deck, or you want to see it ASAP, you probably want three.

If it's important to the deck but you don't necessarily need it early, two is probably ok.

If it's a late-game card, or a nice-to-have-but-not-essential card, one copy will probably be fine.

Having said that, some redundancy can be good in the way of economy or icebreakers.

#4 nungunz

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 08:33 AM

Agreed, there are always exceptions.  But just starting out, they suggestions were just beginner rules of thumb.


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#5 Grimwalker

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 11:27 AM

To run the Professor, you definitely want Self Modifying Code and Test Run in the deck so you can fetch that single copy of the program that's going to get you where you want to go. However, if you count up what programs you want in the deck and it's less than 15 influence, you're better off running the same deck with Mac. This may be a better choice because the Prof gets stronger the more cards you have to choose from, and if you're just starting off there may be a limited number of Crim/Anarch programs worth including.


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#6 Grimwalker

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 11:34 AM

Also re: Professor use Diesel and Quality Time to blow through your deck and find what you need immediately, and don't worry about having to trash cards you don't need right now; Test Run and Clone Chip can fetch them from the Heap on-demand, so that stack of cards can be almost a second hand with no upper limit.

Drop a Same Old Thing on the table and run a single copy of Levy AR Access, that way you can always refresh your deck if you start running out of cards or have used up your recursion. 

 

Fun times :P


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#7 CommissarFeesh

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 02:07 PM

The Professor - the Swiss Army Knife of hacking :P



#8 Maliseraph

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 04:33 PM

I find when I'm building runner decks I usually try to trim them to the 45-49 card range, maybe 50-55 if I'm building Shaper with lots of search and replicators.

When building Corp I almost always want to hit 49 cards, to dilute Agenda but keep influence concentrated, but depending on the deck I may go with 54 or even 59 (rarely).

That said, if my ID's ability says I can go down to 40 cards, I will try very hard to get down to 40 cards as that is something you are trading off something else to get as an advantage on your ID so you want to use it. I will usually try to stay low with Andromeda as her ability effectively lowers your deck count by four by letting you start with extra cards in your hand.

As for card type balance, that depends on your deck's strategy. I've run Mac decks with 1/3 hardware, and Mac decks with only three types of hardware. As previous posters have said, it comes down to what's important in your deck. It's similar to asking how many instants, creatures, sorceries and artifacts a magic deck should have: it depends on what you're trying to do.

If nothing else, don't be afraid to playtest and then tweak your decks using what you've learned. Sometimes a card you thought was great is too expensive in practice, or you missed an easy counter to what you thought was a sure fire combo. And if you have a neat idea but the deck as a whole doesn't quite work, keep an eye on the coming expansions, sometimes a strategy that doesn't quite work today can become very viable tomorrow.

#9 Grimwalker

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 08:06 AM

i've noticed that there's very few consistent guidelines for the breakdown of Operation/Program/Hardware. Because of all the ways to tutor for programs, a lot of people will cut back on software if they think they can go fetch it, and they want to avoid the dead draw of a second copy of a breaker.  You want economy, but not so much that you're flooded with money and can't productively spend it.  I've often been at 7-8 credits and just will sit on that Sure Gamble so I can Run more instead of getting more money.



#10 flatscan

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Posted 01 January 2014 - 11:17 PM

Wow, thanks of much guys. This gives me a much better place to start from (since I seemed to have done almost the exact opposite of everything you guys suggested while I waited). 

 

 

A couple more quick questions if you'll indulge me (one is more of an opinion):

 

-Is it just me or is making a descent Megacorp deck much easier?

 

-Who do you think the best runner is? 


Gracias, 

01


#11 Grimwalker

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 07:07 AM

1) It's not just you. Corp decks usually can be built around a central concept of what you'll do to win the game. You build towards that. Runner decks, on the other hand, usually have to be built to attack a broad range of possible decks, and thus can seem less...focused.

 

2) That's a tricky question. Better and worse are not as applicable as perhaps "easier" and "harder" in terms of skill to play. I don't think anyone can disagree that Number Six Andromeda is both user-friendly and very strong, and Criminal has a lot of strong cards to throw into the mix. Which is why there are so many of her running around.



#12 Brigaldio

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 09:51 PM

Corp decks are much more rigid in their deckbuilding - the basic building blocks (agendas, ice, economy) have to be there in certain proportions.  Once all those are in, you usually have about 9-12 cards that you can use to customize your deck, which isn't that much room.  Runner decks, on the other hand, can choose between a lot more options for two basic functions - If you can make money and break each sub-type of ice, you're in business.

 

So while it's "easy" to make a corp deck in that a lot of your choices are dictated by the design of the game, it's a lot harder to make a successful corp deck because the runner generally has a better economy and more access to deck manipulation effects.

 

As for the best runner...  Eh, that's likely to start a war.  Prior to Mala Tempora there were a few generally accepted strong decks: Andromeda with Anarch breakers and Kate with Datasucker and Atman were top contenders.


Edited by Brigaldio, 04 January 2014 - 07:56 AM.

Now blogging Netrunner, Warmachine, Malifaux, Dust: Warfare, and anything else that catches my interest at Dice Minus Seven.


#13 CommissarFeesh

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 03:36 AM

It's easy to point to most corp decks having similar ratios of ICE etc and say corp decks are easier to build. I still disagree. There's a huge amount of ICE available, and picking the wrong ICE for the deck could be just as crippling as taking too little. Same goes for any other card.

Runner decks, while they need a solution for most Corp tactics, will still have a strategy as well. R&D lock, HQ attack, credit denial, ICE destruction... All of these play very differently.

#14 Grimwalker

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 07:23 AM

Netrunner strategy sometimes seems like the description of celebrity class structure from "How To Lose Friends and Alienate People."

 

"You think you've arrived, doncha?" he said. "I hate to break it to you but you're only in the first room." He paused. "It's not nothing — don't get me wrong — but it's not that great either. Believe me, there are plenty of people in this town who got to the first room and then didn't get any further. After a year or so, maybe longer, you'll discover a secret doorway at the back of the first room that leads to the second room. In time, if you're lucky, you'll discover a doorway in the back of the second room that leads to the third. There are seven rooms in total and you're in the first. Doncha forget it."

 

I feel like I'm in the first room of Netrunner strategy--and plenty of people never get that far--and I'm starting to figure out how to get the door opened to the second.


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#15 flatscan

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 11:13 PM

Ok, I think I've finally got a deck worth playing. But, the people I play with have a bit more experience with me, so I am curious if anyone sees any major problems that I should fix before giving it a go:

 

Deck Size: 50 (min 40)

Influence: 15 (most used of programs)

 

Runner:

   Chaos Theory

 

Hardware:

   Feedback Filter x2

   Omni-Drive x2

   Dinosaurus x2

   The Toolbox

   Monolith

   Cyberfeeder x2

 

Resource:

   Ice Analyzer

   Sacrificial Construct x2

   Aesop's Pawnshop

   Professional Contacts

   Compromised Employee

   Daily Casts 

   Armitage Codebusting x2

   Public Sympathy

   Inside Man

 

Event:

   Modded x2

   Scavenge

   Diesel x2

   Eureka! x2

   Test Run x3

   Infiltration x2

   Sure Gamble x2

 

Program:

   Paricia

   Sahasrara x2

   Net Shield x2

   Cloak x2

   Self-Modifying Code x2

   Scheherasade x2

   Darwin x3

   Crypsis


Edited by flatscan, 14 January 2014 - 11:17 PM.

Gracias, 

01


#16 CommissarFeesh

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 02:25 AM

Ok, the obvious.

You're 10 cards over minimum. This will affect the consistency of your draws. One of the advantages of Chaos Theory is a slimmer deck than most runners, and you're ignoring that benefit if you take 45 cards or more.

You have a lot of one-of cards. This will also affect deck consistency in a deck this size, especially without more search effects.

You can only have one Console at a time. Unless you plan to sell one to Aesop you can't change it once installed. Pick one and lose the others.

Scheherazade is mostly useful for putting down programs which you won't keep installed. For that reason, it's limited use in this deck. It doesn't save you any MU and makes permanent programs vulnerable to trashing if you install more than one on there.

You're only running AI breakers. That can be ok, but Swordsman will ruin your day. They're also expensive in terms of credits. Not sure your economy is strong enough to support them. Relying on recurring credits can be dicey.

Sorry if I seem overly critical, but these things jump off the page at me.
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#17 Grimwalker

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 12:01 PM

I see 2 Net Shield and 2 Feedback Filter - Both are marginal cards worth including a 1x of one or the other for the possibility of a Jinteki matchup, but 4 cards in your deck is too many.

50 Cards in Chaos Theory is pretty much wasted. She's got the +1 MU and you've got a few utility programs that would eat up MU, but Kate would be straight up better in this deck.

 

Your economy is going to be pretty inconsistent. You've got a lot of recurring credits, but I'd worry about your ability to really put money together to install and run consistently

--Cards that are going to be supremely inefficient outside of a deck that is built to leverage their advantages:
Monolith

Eureka

Darwin

Crypsis

Inside Man

Public Sympathy

Test Run

Darwin and Crypsis are terrible without the ability to either boost their strength or reduce the strength of ice. Dinosaurus+Darwin is a good starting point, though.

 

Test Run you ask? Yes, in this deck.
Your main breakers are Darwin and Crypsis--they are *terrible* for on-demand temporary install. Darwin gets better the longer he stays in play, and Crypsis needs clicks to charge with virus counters, and you're giving up a click to Test Run it. With only one Scavenge to keep them in play, you're just basically increasing their sticker price by 3.



#18 Maliseraph

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 07:24 PM

Perhaps give this a whirl, it's close to what you had, requires no more than one base set, and fixes most the problems pointed out. It's a little light on memory, but with her natural +1 MU you should be ok. Kati Jones makes a big difference, much more of the Economy is resource based, with recurring credits generally in hardware and programs. I added Hostage to let you search your Resources now, and added breakers that should run well with this. It doesn't specialize on hitting any particular server so much as being adaptable to take advantage of where the Corp is weak, and Forged Activation orders can force the issue.

Deck Size: 42/min 40
Influence: 15/15

Runner:
Chaos Theory

Hardware (7 cards):
Omni-Drive x2
Plascrete Carapace
The Toolbox
Cyberfeeder x3 (3 inf)

Resource (8 cards):
Sacrificial Construct x2
Professional Contacts
Personal Workshop
Kati Jones
Same Old Thing x2
Scrubber (1 inf)

Event (14 cards):
LUARLA
Modded x2
Diesel x2
Hostage x2 (4 inf)
Test Run x3
Forged Activation Orders x2 (4 inf)
Sure Gamble x2

Program (13 cards)
Sahasrara x2
Net Shield
Cloak x3
Dagger
Gordian Blade
Corroder (2 inf)
Self-Modifying Code x2
Crypsis
Yog.0 (1 inf)

#19 Grimwalker

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 08:19 AM

Don't run Yog without some means to affect the STR of encountered Ice, and you don't need Gordian and Yog in the same deck. I still think Crypsis is a poor choice--this deck just doesn't need him.

I think this deck doesn't really leverage CT's advantages--add three copies of Scavenge to bring it to 45 cards, and it's a perfectly cromulent Kate deck, and Kate would help your economy with getting the necessary hardware and programs installed.

 

Added a Femme to snipe troublesome ice that would be inefficient to get through with the existing breaker Suite--Dagger is a sweet program and I frankly think it doesn't get enough play, but it can bog down against strong sentries or the need to run through multiple Sentries on a server. (Scavenge can retarget Femme as well.)

 

Deck Size: 45
Influence: 15/15

Runner:
Kate "Mac" McCaffery

Hardware (7 cards):
Omni-Drive x2
Plascrete Carapace
The Toolbox
Cyberfeeder x3 (3 inf)

Resource (8 cards):
Sacrificial Construct x2
Professional Contacts
Personal Workshop
Kati Jones
Same Old Thing x2
Scrubber (1 inf)

Event (18 cards):
LARLA
Modded x2
Diesel x2
Hostage x2 (4 inf)
Test Run x3
Forged Activation Orders x2 (4 inf)
Sure Gamble x3

Scavenge x3

Program (12 cards)
Sahasrara x2
Net Shield
Cloak x3
Dagger
Gordian Blade
Corroder (2 inf)
Self-Modifying Code x2
Crypsis
Yog.0 (1 inf)

Femme Fatale (1 Inf)


Edited by Grimwalker, 16 January 2014 - 08:21 AM.


#20 Maliseraph

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 01:17 AM

Looks good to me, was just trying to keep OP's choice of Runner.

Often Yog.0 runs fine on it's own, with Gordian as backup if anything bigger shows up. Femme is a great add, alternatively you can drop Scrubber for Datasucker, which is great in practically every deck too.




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