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Are needle weapons strong enough ?


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#21 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 06:43 AM

The wording there is:

Character can easily detect the attack and has at least a Round to avoid it.

Which to me reads as applying to slow attacks, say, a charge from a long distance, or a rock falling from a high distance, where the attack is ongoing for more than a round. The full-action aim isn't technically part of the attack, if I read the rules right, and it isn't particularly easy to detect. I think in the case of someone aiming at you at short range (or point-blank) you get your full turn to react, which you can spend moving to cover and using a guarded action. This will gain you +20 or +30, and might prevent the attack entirely. *

The bonuses for full and half cover are neat though.

* Which would let the other guy seamlessly transfer his aim bonus to someone else, which I personally hate, as you are aiming at something, not magically boosting your shooting ability. *grumble*

 

I would say it's easy to detect; the guy is spending a full 5 seconds to point his gun at you, after all.



#22 Myrion

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 07:40 AM

Yes, at point-blank range, I'd agree. Keep in mind, though, that Short Range for a Long-Las is up to 75m and up to 100m for the Sniper Rifle!
I don't think at this range, in a firefight, it would be easy to notice...

Even if it is easy to detect though, it doesn't matter, because you do not have one Round to avoid the attack: It's over in a (literal, for the Long-Las) flash! I'd still read the rules as applying to slow-moving attacks, and maaaaaaybe mêlée attacks preceded by a full-action aim, because these strongly remind me of telegraphed / theatrical attacks, where it's clear where the blow is going to go.
However, to stay consistent, I'd have to disallow that.

Someone once mentioned on the forum, that it is relatively easy to write an email to FFG support and get an answer on some questions. I think I shall do so now :)


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#23 GauntZero

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 07:53 AM

Maybe short range should have a max limit.

 

To call 100m a short range seems a little odd.

 

Maybe, short range should be granted only up to 20m max.

 

Or even better - until PerB*5m


Edited by GauntZero, 30 December 2013 - 07:54 AM.

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#24 Durandal7

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 09:12 AM

The ranges have to do with weapon specific accuracies. In other words, short range is relative to the weapon.

 

Lets take a silly example of weapony goodness. A Stub Automatic and an Earthshaker Cannon (artillery!) These weapons rely on more or less the same principles. Use a small explosion to shoot a thing over there --> Short range on a handgun is ~10m-ish. For artillery it's probably around 750m (I'm not an artillerist so not 100% certain on what counts for short range amongst artillery).

 

Of course this is an extreme example. But my point that short range, whatever that means in context, should be relative to the weapon as it is now and not a factor of user proficiency. For user proficiency, see Characteristic Tests.

 

100m as 'short' range on a sniper rifle is perfectly reasonable. Saying 50m is short range for lasguns/conventional assault rifle type weapons is also perfectly reasonable.


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#25 GauntZero

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 09:15 AM

I understand...

 

But hasnt also the perception an influence ? I mean...if you hardly can see the target, it is also more difficult to place a shot well...isnt it ?


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#26 Durandal7

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 09:20 AM

Players should certainly be testing for awareness at ~100m. Made easier if they know the target is going to be there and if they have appropriate telescopic sights.

 

Regarding the difficulty of the actual shot, there are modifiers already for shooting at range and an array of sights that can help you do this.

 

Remember, the sniper rifle is a weapon designed to do single target damage at what might otherwise be considered 'extreme' range. It's appropriate.


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#27 GauntZero

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 09:22 AM

Yes....considering it has an inbuilt telescopic sight, range does not really matter for perception that much.

 

But otherwise I could very well think of a max. distance limited by your perception somehow.


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#28 Durandal7

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 09:27 AM

Well it should be an environmental limit. Unless you're on a very straight street in a city, you aren't going to be able to see more than...oh..500m in any single direction? (I think of Buchanan St in Glasgow for this if you're at the top of it looking down which is a very straight long line). If you're in a packed hive city, again appropriate awareness modifiers apply. Even with a vantage point, picking out a single desired person is going to be nightmarishly difficult and again, simple viewing distance is going to be heavily restricted. Possibly as low as 50m if it's a particularly convoluted layout.


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#29 seanpp

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 06:11 AM

Back on the subject of Needle Weapons and their possible toxins.  

 

DH1's Game Master's Kit came with a booklet that contains the adventure "Maggots in the Meat".  In the back of that booklet is an appendix entitled "Rules for Poisons & Toxins", which I find quite adequate to the task.  It also contains a list of "Infamous Poisons of The Calixis Sector".

 

It's only two pages but I think it gets the job done.


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#30 Myrion

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 01:31 PM

I finally got an answer to the dodge question:
 

 

 

Good question. This particular example specifically refers to exceptional uses of the Dodge Skill in which a character might spend a full Round's time evading. Typically, this sort of thing is handled in Narrative Time (a boulder rolling toward the character that he has to evade, or a room collapsing underneath him as he attempts to escape), but such events can also occur in Structure Time.
 
So, to address your example, the answer is no: this bonus would not typically apply to a Dodge Test to avoid an attack from a foe who has been Aiming at a character since the previous Round. At the GM's discretion, though, it might apply to a less standard use of the Dodge Skill, such as a character's attempt to make a Dodge Test to spend his Turn scrambling out of the path of a Valkyrie gunship that has been shot down and is about to crash on top of him.

To me, this makes a lot of sense, and seems like it shouldn't mess the balance up, since afaict most people played it this way anyway.


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#31 Boss Gitsmasha

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 01:53 PM

Needle weapons have always been hideously rare and costly, but the problem is that they're underpowered for how much effort you need to get it. You need to buy an exotic weapon talent just to use it, they have small magazines, and finding extra ammunition is difficult at best. All told, it's much more cost-effective to just buy a sniper rifle and slap a silencer on it, and then load up with whatever specialty ammunition you want (which comes in far greater variety and quantities and is much easier to find). At the distance you're typically going to be shooting your targets, they're not going to be able to hear a silenced gunshot. The long-las is also a very viable choice, since you're unlikely to ever run out of ammunition, and its Felling (4) and variable power settings (and the use of Hotshot packs) make it much more powerful than the anemic needle rifle, even with the Whisper-Bolt Discharger (from Rogue Trader: Hostile Acquisitions; a lasgun "silencer" that reduces damage by 1).

 

For the cost of a needle rifle, you could buy a Solo boltgun (from Rogue Trader: Into the Storm), a far more powerful weapon with a bigger magazine, and load it with Stalker silenced shells. There are plenty of alternative sniper weapons you can get, and they all outperform the needle rifle in pretty much every practical way. The needle pistol is even more useless; last time I tried to use one while playing Rogue Trader, I ended up doing more damage with a laspistol. When the Imperial Guard's mass-produced flashlight is more powerful than your expensive, exquisite assassin's weapon, get a better gun. They're just not worth it.


Edited by Boss Gitsmasha, 23 January 2014 - 01:56 PM.

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"Oomans are pink an' soft, not tough an' green like da Boyz. Dey'z all da same size too, so dey'z always arguin' about who's in charge, 'cos dere's no way o' tellin' c'ept fer badges an' ooniforms an' fings. When one o' dem wants ta lord it over da uvvers, 'e says 'I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me', or 'I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good'. Da funny fing is, 'arf of 'em believe it an' da uvver 'arf don't, so 'e has ta hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. Wot a lot o' mukkin' about if yer asks me. An' while dey'z all arguin' wiv each uvver over who's da boss, da Orks can clobber da lot."


#32 Cymbel

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 02:11 PM

Don't forget the Hostile Acquistions breakdown las sniper rifle, which is compact, more shots than the needle rifle and still decent damage.



#33 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 03:03 PM

As I mentioned somewhere, the point of needle weapons is not that they be superdeadly weapons.

 

The point of needle weapons is that they are silent, invisible, and leave no obvious wound.

 

Of course they do less damage than a sniper rifle or long las -- otherwise there would be no point in having sniper rifles or long lases!

 

They are specialty assassination weapons, not weapons to be used in a firefight.


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 23 January 2014 - 03:05 PM.

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#34 Boss Gitsmasha

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 03:14 PM

They're not even that good as specialty assassination weapons, and a long-las with whisper-bolt and a silenced sniper rifle are also silent and invisible, and are also far cheaper and more easily supplied with ammunition. And even if they do leave no obvious wound, the presence of poison in the victim's bloodstream would make it fairly obvious how they died. The Exitus rifles used by the Vindicare Assassins cause obvious wounds, like the sniper rifle, and Vindicares are considered to be the best snipers the Imperium has. And ultimately, it doesn't matter if the weapon leaves a wound or not; all that matters is the end result, which is the target being dead and the assassin going undetected.


"Oomans are pink an' soft, not tough an' green like da Boyz. Dey'z all da same size too, so dey'z always arguin' about who's in charge, 'cos dere's no way o' tellin' c'ept fer badges an' ooniforms an' fings. When one o' dem wants ta lord it over da uvvers, 'e says 'I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me', or 'I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good'. Da funny fing is, 'arf of 'em believe it an' da uvver 'arf don't, so 'e has ta hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. Wot a lot o' mukkin' about if yer asks me. An' while dey'z all arguin' wiv each uvver over who's da boss, da Orks can clobber da lot."


#35 Brother Orpheo

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 04:02 PM

bogi sees the bigger picture here, I'm sure.


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#36 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 04:35 PM

They're not even that good as specialty assassination weapons, and a long-las with whisper-bolt and a silenced sniper rifle are also silent and invisible, and are also far cheaper and more easily supplied with ammunition. And even if they do leave no obvious wound, the presence of poison in the victim's bloodstream would make it fairly obvious how they died. The Exitus rifles used by the Vindicare Assassins cause obvious wounds, like the sniper rifle, and Vindicares are considered to be the best snipers the Imperium has. And ultimately, it doesn't matter if the weapon leaves a wound or not; all that matters is the end result, which is the target being dead and the assassin going undetected.

 

Well do whisper-botl long lases exist in the DH Beta?

 

If someone is shot with a sniper rifle, his head blows up and everybody notices due to all the brain bits flying around. If somebody is shot with a needle weapon, he crumples to the floor for no apparent reason.

 

There is no point from a design point of view in making 3 different weapons all of which are carbon copies of each other. As things stand now., the long las, sniper rifle, and needle rifle trade off, in order, killing power for inobviousness. The long las is blatantly obvious, the sniper rifle less so, and the needle rifle not at all.

 

If they were functionally identical there would be no reason for having three different weapons in the first place.


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#37 AtoMaki

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 04:46 PM

If someone is shot with a sniper rifle, his head blows up and everybody notices due to all the brain bits flying around. If somebody is shot with a needle weapon, he crumples to the floor for no apparent reason.

 

Haha... This reminds me the case when our sniper took out a Chaos-assassin-sniper-cultist from 12 kilometers(!!!) away :lol: . Yeah, maybe the target's head was replaced with plasma but ain't no comrade of his could frame the PC for it!

 

On-topic, IIRC Rending damage effects are even more brutal than Energy/Impact ones. So according to the rules, Needle weapons are pretty darn obvious. Though, I must admit, I can't recognize this whisper-bolt-whatever thing, so maybe the secret answer lies there...


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#38 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 04:51 PM

 

If someone is shot with a sniper rifle, his head blows up and everybody notices due to all the brain bits flying around. If somebody is shot with a needle weapon, he crumples to the floor for no apparent reason.

 

Haha... This reminds me the case when our sniper took out a Chaos-assassin-sniper-cultist from 12 kilometers(!!!) away :lol: . Yeah, maybe the target's head was replaced with plasma but ain't no comrade of his could frame the PC for it!

 

On-topic, IIRC Rending damage effects are even more brutal than Energy/Impact ones. So according to the rules, Needle weapons are pretty darn obvious. Though, I must admit, I can't recognize this whisper-bolt-whatever thing, so maybe the secret answer lies there...

 

 

What kills the target should ideally be the poison. :) Which OK does do Impact damage. ;)

 

The whisper-bolt thing is something from one of the Rogue Trader supplements.


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 23 January 2014 - 04:52 PM.


#39 Cymbel

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 05:39 PM

Hostile Acquisitions, which also has a dedicated assassin longlas, which is something like 1d10+3 E, 10 shots, silent, no visible beam and can be taken apart or set up in less than 30 seconds IIRC



#40 Amaimon

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 02:52 AM

Cadence "Widower" Dart Casting Device FTW.


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