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Are needle weapons strong enough ?


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#1 GauntZero

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 11:15 AM

What do you think ?

 

I think, compared to Sniper rifles and longlas, they are a little too weak, given that they are very rare.

 

Maybe it would be good to increase the Felling-X ?

 

This would only really help though, if felling also gets an effect against non-Unnatural Toughness targets.

 

Or should Toxic be buffed a little ?

As there now is a chance to use detox in time (since Update 4), should toxic maybe add damage accourding to the targets DoF at the Toughness test ?

Or inflict 1 additional fatigue ?

 

Other ideas ?


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#2 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 12:23 PM

They are soundless and have no muzzle flash, no? That's the point in using them, not killing power.

 

Plus, you can load them with tranquilizers etc.


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 29 December 2013 - 12:23 PM.


#3 GauntZero

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 12:29 PM

Maybe their true strength comes with alternative toxins...

 

But soundless is a good hint - didnt think about that.


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#4 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 12:45 PM

I think each weapons should have its own niche; otherwise you wind up with various weapons just being more powerful versions of each other (see: heavy bolter and multilaser). The needle weapons are assination weapons.

 

Come to think of it, doesn't the weapon leave almost no discernable wound? The guy falls over; nobody knows why. No alarm is raised.


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 29 December 2013 - 12:48 PM.

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#5 GauntZero

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 12:48 PM

You are right. My fault. Totally didbt think about that.


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#6 susanbrindle

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 04:42 PM

Well, assuming that the needle actually kills the target.



#7 Tom Cruise

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 05:33 PM

The issue with the needle rifle is there's the suggestion of using alternate toxins but there isn't much in the way of mechanics to facilitate that. Or any toxins worth shooting into people for that matter.


Edited by Tom Cruise, 29 December 2013 - 05:33 PM.

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#8 Morangias

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 05:47 PM

The issue with the needle rifle is there's the suggestion of using alternate toxins but there isn't much in the way of mechanics to facilitate that. Or any toxins worth shooting into people for that matter.

So much this. My group never used needlers because of that, and the near-uselessness of generic Toxic weapon trait.


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#9 Tom Cruise

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 05:51 PM

The fact that the only toxins worth injecting into adversaries are ones that are intended to buff you is kind of hilarious. Killing enemies with hardcore withdrawal symptoms is a little silly.



#10 Morangias

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 06:33 PM

The fact that the only toxins worth injecting into adversaries are ones that are intended to buff you is kind of hilarious. Killing enemies with hardcore withdrawal symptoms is a little silly.

I can honestly say, I never thought of doing that.


There is no truth in flesh, only betrayal.

There is no strenght in flesh, only weakness.
There is no constancy in flesh, only decay.
There is no certainty in flesh but death.


#11 Tom Cruise

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 06:56 PM

There's a few drugs in the splatbooks with such nasty side effects that taking them is basically equivalent to lighting your character sheet on fire. Not sure why anyone would use them for their intended purpose.



#12 Morangias

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 07:06 PM

There's a few drugs in the splatbooks with such nasty side effects that taking them is basically equivalent to lighting your character sheet on fire. Not sure why anyone would use them for their intended purpose.

Indeed there are. I just never considered the possibility of stuffing enemies with them to trigger those effects, as I kinda lost interest right after determining I'd have to suffer permanent brain damage before ever considering using them on my char.

 

Mind you, I'm not exactly opposed to them being there, as I consider their presence a matter of verisimilitude - in our world, people take all kinds of crap with ridiculously devastating side effects for a "kick" that's often hard to define, so I consider those drugs to be the 40k equivalents of dirty crystal meth.


There is no truth in flesh, only betrayal.

There is no strenght in flesh, only weakness.
There is no constancy in flesh, only decay.
There is no certainty in flesh but death.


#13 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 02:30 AM

Well, assuming that the needle actually kills the target.

 

A weapon that is a guaranteed one-shot, one-kill is a bad idea.

 

But a needler (I am assuming the stats in DH2 are the same as in the other game lines) fired by a competent sniper stands a pretty good chance of killing somebody in one hit.

 

Generic heretical noble, TB3, 10 Wounds.

 

Average damage with 5 degrees of success = 16.5, rounding up to 17, drops target to 17 - 3 - 10 = -4 crits.

 

Sniper obviously has Mighty Shot and a good BS, so add 3 to that. That's -7.

 

He probably has crack shot as well, so that's another minus-something (2?). That's -9. So, he's dead without any toxic effect,



#14 GauntZero

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 05:10 AM

It would be easy to set up good toxic rules.

 

Set up a list of alternative toxins (10 would already be sufficient).

 

All weapons with the toxic quality may exchange their standard toxin with one of these.

 

All weapons with a tox dispenser may also exchange it.

 

A tox dispenser gets 10 uses out of 1 dose, ranged weapons get 10 bullets per 1 dose.


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#15 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 05:25 AM

Be careful you don't wind up overpowering the needle rifle though.

 

After all, it is NOT supposed to just be a better (or inferior) version of the sniper rifle or long las; it has a niche. The sniper rifle and long las SHOULD be better at plain killing power than the needle rifle.

 

(Though the SR and LL are themselves a little redundant, except that the LL is more noticeable but has higher damage potential -- so there is a high-power rifle that is obvious, a medium-power less obviuous one, and a lower-power very inobvious one. See? Niches! :).)

 

BTW, I don't know if this has been carried over into the DH2 Beta, but in BC/OW Accurate weapons have to deal with the fact that, if you take a Full Action Aim to shoot someone and he can see you, he has a +30 Dodge. I just noticed this  rule, so I thought I would bring it up.


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 30 December 2013 - 05:26 AM.


#16 Myrion

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 05:29 AM

Could you please point me to this rule? It seems very odd to me and I'd like to read it for myself :-) 



#17 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 05:46 AM

Could you please point me to this rule? It seems very odd to me and I'd like to read it for myself :-) 

 

In the Black Crusade rulebook, in the example modifiers for the Dodge skill.

 

It's seems logical; you have much more time to get out of the way.


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 30 December 2013 - 05:47 AM.


#18 GauntZero

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 05:53 AM

Could you please point me to this rule? It seems very odd to me and I'd like to read it for myself :-) 

 

This rule has a note in the skills section (dodge & parry). I think it would be better to integrate it into the combat section though (along with the modifier for defending in cover).


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#19 Tenebrae

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 06:25 AM

 

Could you please point me to this rule? It seems very odd to me and I'd like to read it for myself :-) 

 

This rule has a note in the skills section (dodge & parry). I think it would be better to integrate it into the combat section though (along with the modifier for defending in cover).

 

My opinion: If it's a combat element not in the combat section, it's not rules but fluff.



#20 Myrion

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 06:28 AM

The wording there is:

Character can easily detect the attack and has at least a Round to avoid it.

Which to me reads as applying to slow attacks, say, a charge from a long distance, or a rock falling from a high distance, where the attack is ongoing for more than a round. The full-action aim isn't technically part of the attack, if I read the rules right, and it isn't particularly easy to detect. I think in the case of someone aiming at you at short range (or point-blank) you get your full turn to react, which you can spend moving to cover and using a guarded action. This will gain you +20 or +30, and might prevent the attack entirely. *

The bonuses for full and half cover are neat though.

* Which would let the other guy seamlessly transfer his aim bonus to someone else, which I personally hate, as you are aiming at something, not magically boosting your shooting ability. *grumble*






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