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What will 'Force & Destiny' look like?


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#41 Logan Ambrose

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 02:34 PM

Lightbulb! What if the obligation system for F&D (assuming its force based) allows you to pick your slice of the force to work on. Knowledge for example would be about recovering knowledge and sharing it and thus hoarding or destroying knowledge would be a shift to the dark side. This makes each characters struggle with the dark side different and personal.
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#42 ErikB

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 02:47 PM

I was referring to a narrative concept that encouraged you to bring places alive with the force using feelings and emotions to describe the scene.

 

Combining badass fight scenes with a sense of mysticism is kinda the whole MO of martial arts movies.

 

 


Edited by ErikB, 29 December 2013 - 02:48 PM.

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#43 Agatheron

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 03:24 PM

One insight that may be useful is the recent publications of the Jedi and Sith books by Lucasbooks outside of FFG. I've not got my hands on them yet, but I will soon, as they provide "canonical" insights into the force from the Jedi and Sith points of view, complete with margin-note commentary from the perspective of Luke Skywalker, Yoda, Darth Sidious and others. Even a cursory read of this gives plenty of ideas as to how Force-users may work in F&D. Remember, the game will be called Force & Destiny, not "the Jedi Sourcebook." Jedi are simply one (formerly largish) order of force users amongst a huge Galaxy. In a time where the Jedi have been hunted down, force-sensitives are presumably still born at the same rate as they were before.

In that regard, we are very likely to see a wider choice than simply making Jedi (or even Sith) characters.

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#44 ErikB

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 04:28 PM

If you wanted to get all 'from a certain point of view' about it Ahsoka isn't a Jedi in this period. She left the order.


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#45 Glorious Chief

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 05:20 PM

I would like it to cover the period just after Episode VI and maybe up to I, Corran Horn or thereabouts, when force users are starting to emerge in greater numbers (so-to-speak) and the academy was beginning to be reestablished.

 

And as Agatheron mentioned, one could use the Sith and Jedi books as supplements up until if or when FFG covers the fluffier side of the force. And isn't there that Jedi compendium or whatever that was recently published?


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#46 DanteRotterdam

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 05:31 PM

And to think I took ErikB off ignore because he seemed to be doing so much better lately.... Who naive was I?
Oh well, that was easily fixed.

I actually think FFG has their work cut out for them with F&D. It seems that they will either have to delve way deeper into the EU or get onboard what the future movies will bring just sticking to the OT won't be sufficient I guess.
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#47 ErikB

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 05:34 PM

I would like it to cover the period just after Episode VI and maybe up to I, Corran Horn or thereabouts

 

FFG probably can't touch anything after Endor till the new movies are out.


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#48 kaosoe

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 05:36 PM

One insight that may be useful is the recent publications of the Jedi and Sith books by Lucasbooks outside of FFG. I've not got my hands on them yet, but I will soon, as they provide "canonical" insights into the force from the Jedi and Sith points of view, complete with margin-note commentary from the perspective of Luke Skywalker, Yoda, Darth Sidious and others. Even a cursory read of this gives plenty of ideas as to how Force-users may work in F&D. Remember, the game will be called Force & Destiny, not "the Jedi Sourcebook." Jedi are simply one (formerly largish) order of force users amongst a huge Galaxy. In a time where the Jedi have been hunted down, force-sensitives are presumably still born at the same rate as they were before.

In that regard, we are very likely to see a wider choice than simply making Jedi (or even Sith) characters.

 

I have read  both of these books. They're really good. I got lots of story ideas and a few character concepts from them.


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#49 Maelora

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 05:36 PM

I would like it to cover the period just after Episode VI and maybe up to I, Corran Horn or thereabouts, when force users are starting to emerge in greater numbers (so-to-speak) and the academy was beginning to be reestablished.

 

This makes the most sense to me, and even dovetails well with our personal Alternative Canon.

 

But I thought all the three games were set between Star Wars and 'Empire Strikes Back'? 

 

That's partly why I started this thread.

 

 

One reason we retconned the Order 66 silliness was because, in the films, there's only a few surviving Jedi, in the EU there's about a billion. You can't swing a lightsaber without hitting a gaggle of  people who somehow mysteriously survived Order 66. If they all came out of hiding at once, they'd outnumber the stormtroopers.

  

So like the 'Son of the Death Star', that had to go. 

 

But I was wondering how FFG will handle it?



#50 Glorious Chief

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 05:44 PM

 

I would like it to cover the period just after Episode VI and maybe up to I, Corran Horn or thereabouts

 

FFG probably can't touch anything after Endor till the new movies are out.

 

 

 

I don't think so to be honest. I think the period following Episode VI is ripe for the emergence of force users and right up FFG's trilogy's alley. The Empire is losing ground, the Rebellion is gaining steam, and you have a fair amount of chaos reigning in as various groups and being vie for the scrapes. It's a perfect time for all manner of shenanigans.



#51 ErikB

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 05:47 PM

The Empire is losing ground, the Rebellion is gaining steam, and you have a fair amount of chaos reigning in as various groups and being vie for the scrapes.

 

That rather depends on where Disney decide to go with their new movies. Until they make up their minds, FFG probably can't touch it.


Edited by ErikB, 29 December 2013 - 05:49 PM.

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#52 Glorious Chief

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 05:51 PM

 

I would like it to cover the period just after Episode VI and maybe up to I, Corran Horn or thereabouts, when force users are starting to emerge in greater numbers (so-to-speak) and the academy was beginning to be reestablished.

 

This makes the most sense to me, and even dovetails well with our personal Alternative Canon.

 

But I thought all the three games were set between Star Wars and 'Empire Strikes Back'? 

 

That's partly why I started this thread.

 

 

One reason we retconned the Order 66 silliness was because, in the films, there's only a few surviving Jedi, in the EU there's about a billion. You can't swing a lightsaber without hitting a gaggle of  people who somehow mysteriously survived Order 66. If they all came out of hiding at once, they'd outnumber the stormtroopers.

  

So like the 'Son of the Death Star', that had to go. 

 

But I was wondering how FFG will handle it?

 

 

Gah! I just missed your post! :o 

 

But I think so too and I don't think GMs will have a lot of difficulty with that period once Force and Destiny is released.

 

And I've been out of touch with things for a while but I thought this series would span the original trilogy to just afterward. And I honestly never believed that Order 66 was that successful once I read up more on the Star Wars universe.

 

As for FFG's handling of Force and Destiny, I think they'll do fine.


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#53 ErikB

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 06:14 PM

But I was wondering how FFG will handle it?

 

3-6 Jedi PC and some replacements falls well within the bounds of A Few.

 

And most of the PCs will probably be ex-Jedi like Ahsoka, non-Jedi force users like Nightsisters, beings what can weild a saber equivalent without being force users (like General Grievous and his magnaguard or Proxy from TFU), escaped Imperial test subjects (clones of Starkiller or Obi Wan Kenobi say), reformed Inquisitors or Shadow Guard or Emperor's Hands, Jedi from the ancient past frozen in carbonite and awakened to a new era like Samurai Jack or random high school kids who discover they can force choke people like in Chronicle.

 

Its a big old galaxy. Plenty of room to get lost.


Edited by ErikB, 29 December 2013 - 06:16 PM.

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#54 Maelora

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 06:15 PM

 

 

Assuming they cover the entire original movies, that would make the most sense, I think.   That the F&D PCs are the first of a new breed of a new Jedi order.  

 

Which fits in fine with our personal canon, even if the circumstances are pretty much completely different.



#55 Maelora

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 06:16 PM

 

But I was wondering how FFG will handle it?

 

3-6 Jedi PC and a few replacements falls well within the bounds of A Few.

 

And most of the PCs will probably be ex-Jedi like Ahsoka, non-Jedi force users like Nightsisters, beings what can weild a saber equivalent without being force users (like General Grievous and his magnaguard or Proxy from TFU), escaped Imperial test subjects (clones of Starkiller or Obi Wan Kenobi say), reformed Inquisitors or Shadow Guard or Emperor's Hands, Jedi from the ancient past frozen in carbonite and awakened to a new era like Samurai Jack or random high school kids who discover they can force choke people like in Chronicle.

 

Its a big old galaxy. Plenty of room to get lost.

 

 

That would work too. 



#56 mouthymerc

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 06:27 PM

I think F&D will be a book that combines many concepts. I think, on its own, it will be a book about the Force and much of what that encompasses. So there will be Force careers and specs, but maybe more generic so you can tack on Jedi, Sith or Nightsister after the fact. But I also think it will be a about realized potential in how FFG wants the game to integrate together. Characters that start in EotE can progress through AoR to end up in F&D. So you will be able to model starting Force-users or Luke's journey or whatever. I think the F&D book can be targeted at the original trilogy while still being useful to other Force-users.

 

Also, just because the EU has innundated us with Jedi that escaped Order 66 doesn't mean we have to do the same in our games. Remember the players are the stars so there can be as many or as few surviving Jedi as we want.


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#57 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 06:42 PM


I don't think there's much room for character development if they just stick to the Rebellion era with F&D.  This is supposedly the tome that will bring us full-fledged Jedi, so if they don't go with the future movies they're going to have to reference pre-Imperial times (and hopefully TCW).

 

On the contrary, I'd say there's plenty of room for character growth even within that limited time frame.  Not just for Jedi PCs, but for Force-using PCs in general.  One of the running themes from the WEG days was in regards to Force-users in general and Jedi in particular was finding someone that could teach you the ways of the Force (even if it was simply for the mechanical benefit of being able to buy-up your Force skills at a quicker and less expensive rate).

 

The Rebellion Era is a time when heroes are needed and it's been proven the Empire isn't an unstoppable behemoth.  So the room is there for young students of the Force to embark on darn fool idealistic crusades, both to fight the Empire but also to expand on their own Force abilities.


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#58 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 06:57 PM

As for the mix-and-match of character types from all three books, it was pretty clearly stated from the start in the Edge of the Empire intro video that FFG made that the design intent was to allow for mixed groups from Day One, as the three games were designed and developed as part of a unified whole.

 

In terms of starting characters, you're probably looking at rank newbies with a Force Rating of 1, and that like characters who purchase the Exile or Emergent specializations, they'll have to work to increase their Force Rating.  A Force Rating of 2 is nothing to sneeze at, and makes a Force-user a great deal more capable, but a Force Rating 1 for an F&D character would really only amount to a 20XP savings compared to an EotE or AoR PC... and that's not a whole lot in the long run, and is about one adventure's worth of XP awards.

 

As for balancing Force-users, in both the game and in a mixed group, I think a lot of that is going to fall on the GM to keep Force-users in check.  I'd prefer that FFG not try for an entirely game-mechanics approach, as such attempts tend to only be as good as the GM enforcing them (though Gary M. Sarli's "Five Questions" proved incredibly helpful for Saga Edition on when to assign a Dark Side Point).  Truthfully, I think that just using the fluff of the setting (Force-users are rare, they are highly mistrusted by the general populace, and the Empire is gunning for them) would go a long ways towards cutting down on Lightsaber Syndrome.  There's also the balance factor that a Force-user has to split their XP between their specialization talents (particularly to get that very useful Force Rating talent) and buying Force powers & upgrades, which in turn cuts down on the XP they have to spend on skills, which are the real bread&butter of how effective a character is in this game.


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#59 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 07:06 PM

I think F&D will be a book that combines many concepts. I think, on its own, it will be a book about the Force and much of what that encompasses. So there will be Force careers and specs, but maybe more generic so you can tack on Jedi, Sith or Nightsister after the fact. But I also think it will be a about realized potential in how FFG wants the game to integrate together. Characters that start in EotE can progress through AoR to end up in F&D. So you will be able to model starting Force-users or Luke's journey or whatever. I think the F&D book can be targeted at the original trilogy while still being useful to other Force-users.

 

Also, just because the EU has innundated us with Jedi that escaped Order 66 doesn't mean we have to do the same in our games. Remember the players are the stars so there can be as many or as few surviving Jedi as we want.

Well, Steve Horvath has said that his Force-using PC in an in-office campaign started as an Exile in EotE, progressed further in the Force courtesy of AoR, and will complete his destiny in F&D, so that sort of progression isn't lost on the design team.

 

As for the career/specialization deal, outside of Jedi (which if that isn't a separate career with individual career specs, I'll be very surprised), the fact that there are so many Force traditions to draw from has me thinking that the notion of a single Force-user career might be the best option, again treating each Force tradition as it's own universal specialization, with the F/U career getting to select one of those universal F/S specs as their starting specialization; in effect, it would treat any Force-based specializations as being a career specialization.

 

It would certainly provide a lot of versatility for players that don't want their Force-user to default to being a Jedi; a common complaint with Saga Edition was that if wanted a Force-user PC and didn't start as a Jedi, you were putting yourself behind the 8-ball (which I think is a load of dung, but the complaint's been raised often enough in the past to warrant mention).  The Exile and Emergent would be options for this solitary F/S career, but likely be less appealing than specs based on Force traditions, which makes sense as the the Exile and Emergent are in the "self-taught" category, with the Exile being a grab-bag of Force-based tricks and the Emergent being more of the "act on instinct" type.


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#60 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 07:26 PM


But I was wondering how FFG will handle it?

 

I suspect that they'll take their cues from the early days of the EU, when rogue Jedi weren't a common occurance, and actually being trained in the ways of the Jedi was a pretty big deal.

 

WEG and pre-Saga WotC both hadled "newbie Jedi PCs" with the notion that the PC's initial master wasn't a surviving Jedi Master (or even a Jedi Knight), but rather an apprentice that had managed to avoid attention, and passed on what little training they had to the PC, possibly with a lightsaber if the PC was really lucky.  in fact, in the Rebellion Era sourcebook for the OCR, the campaign path included such an NPC, an apprentice that managed to avoid the purge (said book was published prior to Episode II being released) and could be used to allow a PC to start taking levels in the Jedi Guardian class (OCR and RCR both had a setting restriction that Rebellion Era PCs could not begin play in either of the Jedi base classes), and much later in the campaign a Jedi Knight was encountered to help guide a Jedi PC through the Trials.

 

So FFG could take a similar approach, allowing that any PCs that start with the Jedi career had either received a modicum of training from a survivor of the purge, or they were a failed apprentice that left the Order (and obviously are quite old by the time of the Rebellion Era) and have decided to pick up where they left off in their training.  WEG covered both approaches with the Minor Jedi template (a youngish student that had only received a modicum of training from a Jedi survivor) and the Failed Jedi template (an older individual that was a drop-out and had turned to booze to cope with the stress of being a failed apprentice).  The Quixotic Jedi template really wasn't much of a Jedi (granted, WEG pretty much used the term "Jedi" as shorthand for "Force-user) and the Young Jedi template was written as being something of a prodigy that had heard about the Jedi Knights while growing up and figured it'd be cool to emulate them.

 

But as the EU has noted, it's a big galaxy, and there's plenty of room for an apprentice to lose themselves in... so long as they keep their heads down and don't draw attention to themselves.  In fact, per the Revenge of the Sith novelization (writen by Matthew Stover and very much worth reading), Yoda and Obi-Wan managed to change the holonet beacon at the temple to warn any survivors of the Clone Trooper betrayal to go into hiding until further notice; instructions that would be heeded by those Jedi survivors as it came from the Grand Master of the Order as well as one if it's more respected members of the High Council.

 

The EU may have gotten a little carried away with just how many Jedi managed to survive Order 66 (particularly from the ranks of Jedi Knights and Jedi Masters), but I don't see where FFG has to follow that example to the letter.  Though to again pull from the EU, this time the novel Darth Vader: Rise of the Dark Lord has Palpatine observe that he knows full well that Order 66 didn't kill every single Jedi... but he doesn't care, because the Jedi Order's power base has been broken, and from where he sits, Vader's obsession with hunting down every last surviving Jedi is more of a personal vendetta than a matter of serious concern.  As long as those surviving Jedi stay in hiding and don't cause trouble, Palps couldn't really care less.  it's the ones that try fighting the Empire (such as General Rahm Kota or the PCs for that matter) that should be actively hunted and destroyed.


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