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What will 'Force & Destiny' look like?


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#501 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 04:03 PM

Well, the Guardian/Consular/Sentinel split has been included in Star Wars: The Old Republic, which takes very little from WotC's RPG books.

 

Problem is that FFG has already incorporated a "class label" system with EotE and AoR, using terms like "bounty hunter" and "smuggler" and "soldier" and turning what were generic labels into class names.

 

While it doesn't have to be mentioned during gameplay itself, it's a convenient short-hand for a player to use when answering "what type of character are you playing?"


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#502 mouthymerc

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 04:22 PM

Well, the Guardian/Consular/Sentinel split has been included in Star Wars: The Old Republic, which takes very little from WotC's RPG books.

 

Not just here either. The book The Jedi Path describes the Jedi in terms of guardians, consulars, and sentinels. It wouldn't be the first time an RPG informed on canon for Star Wars. Some, if not much, of the current canon sprung from the WEG Star Wars game.


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#503 2P51

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 04:31 PM

I believe best way to different the different "type" of jedi is best shown in their particular combnation of specializations, talents, powers, and skills.  The jedi you've grown to become is the jedi you are.

Agreed.

 

Well, the Guardian/Consular/Sentinel split has been included in Star Wars: The Old Republic, which takes very little from WotC's RPG books.

 

Problem is that FFG has already incorporated a "class label" system with EotE and AoR, using terms like "bounty hunter" and "smuggler" and "soldier" and turning what were generic labels into class names.

 

While it doesn't have to be mentioned during gameplay itself, it's a convenient short-hand for a player to use when answering "what type of character are you playing?"

 

 

 

Well, the Guardian/Consular/Sentinel split has been included in Star Wars: The Old Republic, which takes very little from WotC's RPG books.

 

Not just here either. The book The Jedi Path describes the Jedi in terms of guardians, consulars, and sentinels. It wouldn't be the first time an RPG informed on canon for Star Wars. Some, if not much, of the current canon sprung from the WEG Star Wars game.

 

The movies call them Padawan, Jedi Knights, and Jedi Masters.  I'd prefer FFG handle it that way also.


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#504 Morbieus

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 05:59 PM

Well, the Guardian/Consular/Sentinel split has been included in Star Wars: The Old Republic, which takes very little from WotC's RPG books.

 

Problem is that FFG has already incorporated a "class label" system with EotE and AoR, using terms like "bounty hunter" and "smuggler" and "soldier" and turning what were generic labels into class names.

 

While it doesn't have to be mentioned during gameplay itself, it's a convenient short-hand for a player to use when answering "what type of character are you playing?"

 

 

Problem is no one can start as a jedi.  You'd be way to powerful compared to other starting characters.  Especially within the time frame of the setting, sure you can be force sensitive at start, but you are not a jedi yet.



#505 CaptainRaspberry

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 09:20 AM

Problem is no one can start as a jedi.  You'd be way to powerful compared to other starting characters.  Especially within the time frame of the setting, sure you can be force sensitive at start, but you are not a jedi yet.

 

We're thinking it's likely some Jedi Careers will be released with F&D. The question on everybody's mind is what they'll be and how they'll be structured.


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#506 Morbieus

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 11:11 AM

 

Problem is no one can start as a jedi.  You'd be way to powerful compared to other starting characters.  Especially within the time frame of the setting, sure you can be force sensitive at start, but you are not a jedi yet.

 

We're thinking it's likely some Jedi Careers will be released with F&D. The question on everybody's mind is what they'll be and how they'll be structured.

 

It wouldn't fit the setting and time though.  "Hey I'm brand new character, ooo jedi career to start... here's hundreds of extra xp."  Even without hundreds of extra xp, the lightsaber skill to start... would still be big deal, plus a lightsaber if you're a "jedi".  Once again, way too powerful for a starting character.

 

Look at Luke.  You don't start as Luke from end of Return of the Jedi.  You start as a force sensitive farm boy.

 

The jedi and their ways are almost completely forgotten by this time.  Most the knowledge lost.  The don't train like they used to, those that would start as a jedi, are the ones would've been taken by the council at a very young age.  I know that myself as a GM, you'd have a very hard time convincing me in this time period that you're character has been trained in the jedi ways for the years and years it would require for your character to be able to say "yes, this is my career"

 

Heck, even the Saga edition recommends that you don't let people take jedi as their first level during this time period.  


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#507 ScooterinAB

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 11:15 AM

I would say that all of those guardian/consular/sentinel instances are either confined to the Old Republic era or is just d20 baggage. Either way, it's not something that should or needs to be in F&D. Even if the d20 game influenced canon, all references seem to be isolated to the Old Republic era. These terms do not seem to be found anywhere else. And at worst, Old Republic carries baggage from KOTOR, which is based off of Star Wars d20.

 

To me, still not proof that these terms have any penetration.

 

Thinking about career breakdown more. I wouldn't be surprised if the Exile and Emergent are included in some form, possibly in a career-like structure. The books are meant to be stand alone games, though can be used together. Assuming that there are non-Force using careers along side Jedi, and that Jedi would have a higher Force rating that offered by the Exile and Emergent, it would be appropriate to have a way to become a Jedi later without needing EoE and AoR.

 

I've also been pondering what Knights and Masters look like, should the scope of the game go that far. Perhaps the universal specialization in the book (each includes at least one) is either the Jedi Knight or Master. There is also a mechanic that popped up in a supplement that allows a few other advancements in a specialization's talent tree (I think it tacks onto the bottom and has a few branches). This is pure speculation, but it's certainly a way to handle advancing through the Jedi ranks, based on what has been produced for the game so far.


Edited by ScooterinAB, 20 February 2014 - 11:15 AM.


#508 Josep Maria

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 11:27 AM

Hi people!

 

There is any idea if people from FFG will give us some spoilers/previews about the beta? The typical news with some info and screenshots.


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#509 Morbieus

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 11:45 AM

I would say that all of those guardian/consular/sentinel instances are either confined to the Old Republic era or is just d20 baggage. Either way, it's not something that should or needs to be in F&D. Even if the d20 game influenced canon, all references seem to be isolated to the Old Republic era. These terms do not seem to be found anywhere else. And at worst, Old Republic carries baggage from KOTOR, which is based off of Star Wars d20.

 

To me, still not proof that these terms have any penetration.

 

Thinking about career breakdown more. I wouldn't be surprised if the Exile and Emergent are included in some form, possibly in a career-like structure. The books are meant to be stand alone games, though can be used together. Assuming that there are non-Force using careers along side Jedi, and that Jedi would have a higher Force rating that offered by the Exile and Emergent, it would be appropriate to have a way to become a Jedi later without needing EoE and AoR.

 

I've also been pondering what Knights and Masters look like, should the scope of the game go that far. Perhaps the universal specialization in the book (each includes at least one) is either the Jedi Knight or Master. There is also a mechanic that popped up in a supplement that allows a few other advancements in a specialization's talent tree (I think it tacks onto the bottom and has a few branches). This is pure speculation, but it's certainly a way to handle advancing through the Jedi ranks, based on what has been produced for the game so far.

I remember they had a video way back, and in it when they were describing how the game was going to be broken into the three core books.  They explained that you would be able to take a force sensitive character from EoTE, into AoR, and then become a jedi with F&D.  

 

I could see jedi knight being a universal specialization, requiring force rating 3+.  And that mechanic you're thinking of is the signature abilities, which are only available to add on to any of the specializations from your career.



#510 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 04:21 PM

Hi people!

 

There is any idea if people from FFG will give us some spoilers/previews about the beta? The typical news with some info and screenshots.

They did it for the AoR Beta, so odds are they'll do the same for the F&D Beta.

 

Only reason there were no previews for the EotE Beta was that FFG having the Star Wars license was something of an open secret; they didn't confirm it, but enough other companies that tried for the license said "we tried and failed, but we know somebody's got it" along with Leland Chee suddenly following FFG on Twitter pretty much confirmed the suspicion.


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#511 jaethe77

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 02:02 AM

Padawan, Jedi Knight, Jedi Master are all titles more in  line with Duke, lord, King, etc. Same goes for the Sith. Darth Vader is a Fringer/Jedi Guardian/Ace Pilot/Sith marauder (based purely on conjecture from guesses about F&D) not a Sith career with a Darth spec. Likewise for Luke, he's a Fringer/Jedi Guardian/? not a Fringer/Jedi padawan/Jedi knight/etc. :)

As always...I'm fine with being proven wrong.

 

I fully expect to see a Jedi career with Guardian (adherents to a more martial aspect of the force. more deadly attack, lethal strike, toughness, etc in their talent tree), Consular (adherents to a more mystical aspect of the force in their trree, focusing on talents like balance, overwhelm emotions, maybe a second +1 force rating on the bottom row, etc), and Sentinels (adherents to a more spy like aspect with a focus on walking the dark in search of Sith/Dark side force users, stealth and extra resistance to dark side powers/Influence, etc).

 

I expect the career to have Melee, Lightsabre, Vigilance, Pilot (space), Pilot (planetary), Know (Lore), Brawl, and Leadership (I SO want to see battle meditation in the guardian/consular tree! Right now, I've been using a combination of Inspiring rhetoric and  Field Leader to mimic it.) 

Assuming the 5 point perception/discipline become career skills is still on the trees.

 

Guardian spec skills will likely be Athletics, Lightsabre, Resilience, Coercion

Consular spec will likely have Cool, Negotiation, Charm, Leadership

Sentinel Spec will likely have Stealth, Vigilance, streetwise, survival

 

This is my guess for F&D...now Gencon just needs to get here. :(



#512 Morbieus

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 04:40 AM

Padawan, Jedi Knight, Jedi Master are all titles more in  line with Duke, lord, King, etc. Same goes for the Sith. Darth Vader is a Fringer/Jedi Guardian/Ace Pilot/Sith marauder (based purely on conjecture from guesses about F&D) not a Sith career with a Darth spec. Likewise for Luke, he's a Fringer/Jedi Guardian/? not a Fringer/Jedi padawan/Jedi knight/etc. :)

As always...I'm fine with being proven wrong.

 

I fully expect to see a Jedi career with Guardian (adherents to a more martial aspect of the force. more deadly attack, lethal strike, toughness, etc in their talent tree), Consular (adherents to a more mystical aspect of the force in their trree, focusing on talents like balance, overwhelm emotions, maybe a second +1 force rating on the bottom row, etc), and Sentinels (adherents to a more spy like aspect with a focus on walking the dark in search of Sith/Dark side force users, stealth and extra resistance to dark side powers/Influence, etc).

 

I expect the career to have Melee, Lightsabre, Vigilance, Pilot (space), Pilot (planetary), Know (Lore), Brawl, and Leadership (I SO want to see battle meditation in the guardian/consular tree! Right now, I've been using a combination of Inspiring rhetoric and  Field Leader to mimic it.) 

Assuming the 5 point perception/discipline become career skills is still on the trees.

 

Guardian spec skills will likely be Athletics, Lightsabre, Resilience, Coercion

Consular spec will likely have Cool, Negotiation, Charm, Leadership

Sentinel Spec will likely have Stealth, Vigilance, streetwise, survival

 

This is my guess for F&D...now Gencon just needs to get here. :(

The d20 references... they burn....

 

Hoping F&D is a lot like a system that is known for jedi being horribly unbalanced, isn't what I would call a good thing.  WoTC took D&D and reskinned it with Star Wars.  That's not the Star Wars we want.  Seems to be so many want F&D to come out just so they can hopefully have completely broken characters from the start compared to others.  Go back to the d20 way of, Jedi!, or what's the point.    

 

FFG has a chance here to do something unique, and they've been building on it with the two books they have.  The force is subtle, it takes time, and patience to learn to use it well.  I really hope they don't just throw it all away with F&D.

 

Everyone wants to play prequel movie jedis, in original trilogy setting... sound a little off to you?

 

I also don't think people are understanding just how extrememly rare a force sensitive that hasn't been killed or corrupted yet is.  Even during the height of the republic the number of jedi compared to a whole GALAXY was SUPER EXTREMEMLY SMALL.

 

This is the setting, you start as an episode IV Luke, not an episode I Obi-Wan.


Edited by Morbieus, 21 February 2014 - 04:55 AM.

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#513 Morbieus

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 04:48 AM

Padawan, Jedi Knight, Jedi Master are all titles more in  line with Duke, lord, King, etc.

 Umm... no they aren't.  Where does this come from?  I'd go with you're making a far bigger stretch trying to shoe horn in guardian/counsler/sentinel, then saying padawan, knight, master is wrong.  They are titles, but they are titles that are earned.  

Like a craft skill.  Apprenticeship, mastery, etc.  Same reason knight and master were prestige classes.  Gotta earn them.  



#514 HappyDaze

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 06:39 AM

 


I also don't think people are understanding just how extrememly rare a force sensitive that hasn't been killed or corrupted yet is.  Even during the height of the republic the number of jedi compared to a whole GALAXY was SUPER EXTREMEMLY SMALL.


 

How rare a force sensitive individual is within the galaxy doesn't matter all that much when they are disproportionately common among PC groups. Even if force sensitive individuals are 1/1,000,000,000 of the galaxy's population, they are likely at least 1/10 of the 'population' of PCs.


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#515 That Blasted Samophlange

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 07:02 AM

Perhaps the force guides force users together (so the midichlorians can get funky)?
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#516 mouthymerc

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 08:15 AM

While it is possible that FFG may go in a different direction with the F&D book, they have set a precedent with the first two. Six careers, 18 specs. I would be surprised if they changed it. Especially to a leveling system such as Padawan/Knight/Master. But I can be surprised. The guardian/consular/sentinal careers allow them to define certain aspects of being a Jedi and doesn't mean you can not be a generalist (dip into different spec trees). I think that is more likely, due to that helping people decide a direction, than something more general and open-ended.

 

And just because they are focusing on the Original Trilogy does not mean they are beholden to it. Luke's path to become a Jedi does not have to be the the same for all characters. They will, most likely, have character creation so that you can start as Jedi or other Force-users out of the gate. Not drastically powerful, as I think it is their intention to balance progression, but you will be able to create Force-users out of the gate.

 

All three books are designed to work together. While they focused on the OT, characters can really be run in any era. To forgo that in F&D and come out with a system where you need to be coming from one or both of the earlier books would be foolish and go against them coming out with a stand alone Core Book, which is what F&D is supposed to be. If you want to simulate Luke's path you'll be able to, just start taking specs from the F&D book after progressing through one or both of the others. It's as simple as that.


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#517 2P51

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 08:22 AM

You say they've set a precedent and I agree, but then you don't talk about the precedent they've actually set.  FFG has in the first two books decided to handle Force Users differently, and outside their career/specialization system.  Honestly creating Jedi careers and specializations would be more of a departure from the precedent they have set in the first two books in regards to the Force.


Edited by 2P51, 21 February 2014 - 08:24 AM.

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#518 jaethe77

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 10:31 AM

 

Padawan, Jedi Knight, Jedi Master are all titles more in  line with Duke, lord, King, etc. Same goes for the Sith. Darth Vader is a Fringer/Jedi Guardian/Ace Pilot/Sith marauder (based purely on conjecture from guesses about F&D) not a Sith career with a Darth spec. Likewise for Luke, he's a Fringer/Jedi Guardian/? not a Fringer/Jedi padawan/Jedi knight/etc. :)

As always...I'm fine with being proven wrong.

 

I fully expect to see a Jedi career with Guardian (adherents to a more martial aspect of the force. more deadly attack, lethal strike, toughness, etc in their talent tree), Consular (adherents to a more mystical aspect of the force in their trree, focusing on talents like balance, overwhelm emotions, maybe a second +1 force rating on the bottom row, etc), and Sentinels (adherents to a more spy like aspect with a focus on walking the dark in search of Sith/Dark side force users, stealth and extra resistance to dark side powers/Influence, etc).

 

I expect the career to have Melee, Lightsabre, Vigilance, Pilot (space), Pilot (planetary), Know (Lore), Brawl, and Leadership (I SO want to see battle meditation in the guardian/consular tree! Right now, I've been using a combination of Inspiring rhetoric and  Field Leader to mimic it.) 

Assuming the 5 point perception/discipline become career skills is still on the trees.

 

Guardian spec skills will likely be Athletics, Lightsabre, Resilience, Coercion

Consular spec will likely have Cool, Negotiation, Charm, Leadership

Sentinel Spec will likely have Stealth, Vigilance, streetwise, survival

 

This is my guess for F&D...now Gencon just needs to get here. :(

The d20 references... they burn....

 

Hoping F&D is a lot like a system that is known for jedi being horribly unbalanced, isn't what I would call a good thing.  WoTC took D&D and reskinned it with Star Wars.  That's not the Star Wars we want.  Seems to be so many want F&D to come out just so they can hopefully have completely broken characters from the start compared to others.  Go back to the d20 way of, Jedi!, or what's the point.    

 

FFG has a chance here to do something unique, and they've been building on it with the two books they have.  The force is subtle, it takes time, and patience to learn to use it well.  I really hope they don't just throw it all away with F&D.

 

Everyone wants to play prequel movie jedis, in original trilogy setting... sound a little off to you?

 

I also don't think people are understanding just how extrememly rare a force sensitive that hasn't been killed or corrupted yet is.  Even during the height of the republic the number of jedi compared to a whole GALAXY was SUPER EXTREMEMLY SMALL.

 

This is the setting, you start as an episode IV Luke, not an episode I Obi-Wan.

 

 

I don't hope F&D is anything like Saga. The absurd power levels of force users in Saga was a flaw of the system, not the concept itself. My agreement with Guardian/Consular/Sentinel as specs within a Jedi career being the right way to go does not detract, in any way, FFGs fantastic and balanced system. I'm excited to see F&D simply because it "completes" this system and if FFG loses the license or anything else happens I'll still have a full system to run star wars without major house ruling.

My biggest concern is how/when players will get lightsabres in the game after F&D is out. If Jedi and Sith characters start with them for "free" (I.E. not having to buy them) then I'll have to see how FFG mitigates the power of the lightsabre in non restricted eras. Not everyone can run around with cortosis armor/weapons.

 

As for the "super extremely small" part...it's relative.  Sentients of Han solo/R2-D2/Chewbacca/etc capability are extremely rare in comparison to the whole galaxy. The entire point of playing this game is to be special. :)

 

I expect F&D to be fairly well balanced, with my only concern likely to be lightsabres, as I mentioned above. With force powers costing experience like everything else, this emulates the WEG days of force power buying which still made force users powerful but restricted since they had to choose powers or skills or both. They couldn't be good at much else than the force unless they were very powerful. The problem people in WEG jedi were the "spend everything on lightsabre and force ability" people and that's not going to change regardless of system. In saga I made a few simple house rules to bring jedi back in line with other classes. Skill focus, for everyone, was a +1 for each rank the character had in the skill up to +5. This way the character was taking a feat that basically made their skill 1 rank/level instead of 1 rank/2 levels up to level 10. It worked really well. It's been a while so I don't recall off hand what else I changed but the skill focus rule was the main one.



#519 Morbieus

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 01:41 PM

While it is possible that FFG may go in a different direction with the F&D book, they have set a precedent with the first two. Six careers, 18 specs. I would be surprised if they changed it. Especially to a leveling system such as Padawan/Knight/Master. But I can be surprised. The guardian/consular/sentinal careers allow them to define certain aspects of being a Jedi and doesn't mean you can not be a generalist (dip into different spec trees). I think that is more likely, due to that helping people decide a direction, than something more general and open-ended.

 

And just because they are focusing on the Original Trilogy does not mean they are beholden to it. Luke's path to become a Jedi does not have to be the the same for all characters. They will, most likely, have character creation so that you can start as Jedi or other Force-users out of the gate. Not drastically powerful, as I think it is their intention to balance progression, but you will be able to create Force-users out of the gate.

 

All three books are designed to work together. While they focused on the OT, characters can really be run in any era. To forgo that in F&D and come out with a system where you need to be coming from one or both of the earlier books would be foolish and go against them coming out with a stand alone Core Book, which is what F&D is supposed to be. If you want to simulate Luke's path you'll be able to, just start taking specs from the F&D book after progressing through one or both of the others. It's as simple as that.

I never said you'd need the other books, I'm pretty sure F&D will have new "Gain Force Rating 1" specializations.

 

All the information in the current core books, focuses on the current time period, directly after the destruction of the first Death Star.  Yes you can run prequel era, or do new jedi era stuff if you want, but that isn't the intended setting.  They dont need to flesh out a book so they can better have these characters in other eras, because they aren't focusing on them.



#520 Morbieus

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 01:58 PM

http://gsa.thegamern...tar-wars-plans/

 

That doesn't sound so bad to me.  Closer to kind of what I  was thinking a collection of specializations with different requirments to buy into them, and   if its like an epic level handbook, then that kind of works.






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