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Terminator Armor and Precognitive Dodge


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#1 Terraneaux

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 05:49 AM

Is there a consensus on whether or not you can use Precognitive Dodge while wearing terminator armor?



#2 BrotharTearer

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 06:54 AM

"No" was the answer I got from a dev last year. You're not nimble enough to get out of the way (though you know it's coming), basically.


Edited by BrotharTearer, 28 December 2013 - 06:54 AM.

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#3 Calgor Grim

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 01:40 PM

If it were me as a GM, I'd be inclined to allow it. Reason being that I imagine most dodges is more a "bloody hell, incoming, move!" type action wheras the power seems more a "I know the shot will come roughly this way" so you step to the side in advance. This then isn't so much a hasty dodge but a pre-planned sidestep etc. But then this is just my fluff thoughts on that.


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#4 Terraneaux

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 08:47 PM

This really seems like something that should have been stated explicitly in the book or the errata.



#5 Fgdsfg

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 05:15 AM

This really seems like something that should have been stated explicitly in the book or the errata.

 

A lot of stuff, even stuff we've had answered by devs, don't make it into the Errata, because the Erratas are almost never updated.

I think Dark Heresy's last Errata update was in, like, 2009. And now they've moved on to abandon Dark Heresy and start a new edition. So don't expect too much out of erratas.


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#6 Keffisch

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 07:53 AM

Thematically speaking it would be very frightening to mortals to see this lumbering behemoth slowly but surely avoid their fire..



#7 Terraneaux

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 03:47 PM

Basically it makes Terminator armor explicitly worse against meltaguns or warp weapons, since you can't dodge them, period, and that's the best way to avoid those (superlatively damaging) weapons.  I mean, it's a bit of a tradeoff, but you're already trading away quite a bit of mobility and such.



#8 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 03:49 PM

The precog in question is on the level of fractions of a second. You still can't just lithely step aside in your giant armour.



#9 Calgor Grim

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 02:05 AM

It doesnt necessarily need to be a simple step aside, could just lean slightly to one side. 

 

I would argue its about context. Dodging a single incoming shot, maybe. Dodging a grenade throw which will land bang on, no.


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#10 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 12:29 PM

Stepping aside or leaning, you still can't do it as well in huge armour. So I think the -20 is good.



#11 Terraneaux

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 04:27 PM

Stepping aside or leaning, you still can't do it as well in huge armour. So I think the -20 is good.

 Well, there is the penalty to agility, but more importantly it's just a flat out 'no dodges' above and beyond that.



#12 BrotharTearer

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 12:36 AM

Remember that Precog Dodge is technically an evasion reaction, just like dodge is. It's two different ways of reacting to an attack, but you're still reacting — the bottom line is you can't dodge in a terminator armour, no matter how you see the attack coming (in your minds eye or with your own eyes). It's just too slow.


Edited by BrotharTearer, 07 January 2014 - 12:37 AM.


#13 Terraneaux

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 04:00 PM

The issue is that Precognitive Dodge is not a 'dodge' at all, by the rules, though it is an Evasion reaction.



#14 Calgor Grim

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 02:58 AM

As above, I'd allow it on fluff terms purely due to how I interpret the description of the power, being a divination and almost allowing you to predict the move and react before its even fired. There are also the occasional references in stories and books to terminator armoured units moving fairly quickly when they need to. Penalties probably all over but thats another issue. However did some checking up and this is my full conclusion, take this as you will.

  1. Terminator Armour states you cannot Dodge. We know this.
  2. The rules for Evasion (p235) say that this can either be a Dodge or Parry however it states that only dodge can be used against ranged attacks and parry or dodge against melee attacks. I also dont know if BC has something like other books allowing you to parry primitive/thrown ranged attacks. If so, which one as I might need it for my character!
  3. Precognative dodge says that you can use it in a situation you are called upon to make an evasion test.

Since a ranged shot inbound can only be negated by a dodge and is the only available evasion action, the power cannot be used in substitution since you cannot take an evasion check. However it can be used against melee attacks as you get a parry evasion action which could be subbed for the power.

 

Granted it's a long winded logic, probably flawed but this is what I get for not having a brew of wonderful tea based beverage before writing!


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#15 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 03:42 AM

You predict the move and react before it is even fired -- by a millisecond or so.



#16 BrotharTearer

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 12:59 PM

You predict the move and react before it is even fired -- by a millisecond or so.

 

In other words, not enough time to move out of the way.



#17 Cifer

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 07:22 PM

Pretty much. This precognition stuff is after all a game two players play, even without psychic powers: Shooting people is (among other stuff) based on estimating where they'll be when your bullet reaches them (including leading the shot for higher ranges and so on) while dodging is based on estimating on when your opponent is incapable of adjusting for your evasive action and where he'll be unable to shoot.

Precognitive Dodge lends you a hand there - you can start your evasive action exactly at your enemy's point of no return and dodge exactly into the direction where his shot will not reach you. However, it doesn't change the laws of physics: If there's flat-out no possibility of moving away from the shot, the only thing your precognition will tell you is "Better luck next time!", because if you start moving too early, the shooter will simply adjust his aim while if you start moving too late, the bullet hits you. And too early and too late are overlapping areas for people in a lumbering suit of Termie armour...



#18 balom

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 02:36 PM

    Use the -20 as a modifier to the Psychic power test. Simple and easy



#19 BrotharTearer

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 04:49 PM

    Use the -20 as a modifier to the Psychic power test. Simple and easy

 

The "simple and easy" way is "No, you can't."



#20 Calgor Grim

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 06:38 PM

The even simpler and easier way is "Whatever your GM says".


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